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vVv Milkyy

CHOP LIST APRIL '20

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vVv Gaming is moving in direction of it's new vision and in doing this requires a clean out of inactive members listed below. This list confirms activity on the site, when they last logged in. Some of which haven't logged in since 2018, some going back as far as 2014.

Some of these members within the List, I have seen on discord, now is your time to start getting active, and have 2 days to contact me directly, if you still wish to be within vVv Gaming. Failure to reach out within 48 hours - you will be chopped from vVv Gaming.

Community Members - Inactive

vVv Sneake - 30/05/19
vVv Slick - 11/05/19
vVv Petedz - 11/04/18
vVv Bliss - 21/07/19
vVv Riguy - 14/02/19
vVv Nero - 12/06/19

Each of these members will have an private message sent out to them to inform them of the Executive decision made, and they will have a further 5 days to make contact directly to either myself or vVv F R 0 o T x explaining why you want to remain within vVv and will start becoming more active in hope to re-instate their vVv's which will ultimately be decided by the community. They will then be tracked on activity within the community to make sure they are keeping up there promise that they want to be part of our community.

I think the guidance set above is fair and something of which marks the start of motion of our vision moving forward.

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Honorary will remain, although so does being active within the community, the vision in which we are moving, everyone within vVv has a role to play and thats playing their part within the community regardless of status.

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7 minutes ago, vVv Milkyy said:

Honorary will remain, although so does being active within the community, the vision in which we are moving, everyone within vVv has a role to play and thats playing their part within the community regardless of status.

I agree, but with that being said then 99% of the Honorary Members would need to be chopped by this standard. Since my return to vVv I haven't seen any of them be active here on the forums and in discord. To my understanding of that list many of them were moved there, after they made the decision to leave vVv, because of their contributions to growing the community during their time here.

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3 minutes ago, vVv Minjaaa said:

I fully support us having a chop list going forward. I really hope a lot of those names shake off the rust and stick around with us! 

I only hope they " shake the rust off " to actually contribute to the community rather than just to save their title on the forums/discord. 

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11 minutes ago, vVv NBK said:

I only hope they " shake the rust off " to actually contribute to the community rather than just to save their title on the forums/discord. 

If that’s all it’s for it will show quick and they will lose them anyways. :)

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Honestly, I believe this was the wrong approach. I really don't mean to offend anyone and I am very sorry if you take it the wrong way but here is my opinion if you care for it.

So far mentality of every president that got on board was, chop, chop and chop. Sadly I made the same mistake as well and in all honestly, I have not seen a single positive thing to come out of it.  I learned from this mistake and here is me trying to share what I learned so you don't repeat it. Recently we chopped away 90% of out discord members in a day, why? Because they were not active, and now they never will be. Why don't we go and chop 90% of our twitter followers? its the same thing as far as I see it, they don't follow nor re-post our content anyway, so whats the point, we can delete the account, create it again and start over. I honestly see that no different than what has been done so far with discord. I think its high time we realize that discord is a platform for advertising, socializing, information sharing and so much more all spun in one. Its best of every world (social media platform wise) and I feel we just threw that away. We can use it to have a following so much more immersive than any other website you can name. And for the chunk of people that is there and not involved, I don't see as a problem but rather an opportunity to get them involved.

Maybe I understood it wrong when @vVv Doomhammer explained it to me all those years ago. Maybe I even misunderstood as I sat in Mumble server listening to @vVv LordJerith promoting @vVv sK1ppY to an honorary member back then, but it went something along like this. Skippy, you have done so much for our community that I am promoting you to an honorary member, that means you can never be chopped and is a way of the community thanking you for your hard work, donations and effort you have put in. You have done so much, you earned your V's for life. Now Jerry may not have used those words exactly, but that is what I understood him say behind his speech, and that is one of the key moments that made me want to stay involved with vVv through all the hardships I have watched it go through. So if I understood it wrong then that is on me, but if I haven't then I really think that chopping the honorary members is the wrong way to go.

I understand the problem of getting honorary status and washing your hands away. I always saw this as an issue as I tried very hard to get people engaged back and had next to no success with anyone holding the honorary title. I back then decided that it wasn't the right problem for me to fix so I focused on building new content with new members as oppose to relying on the old who kept giving "making vVv great again" speech i keep seeing everywhere. I now find myself wishing I gave this problem a bit more thought and action back then, seeing where its going next.

I don't like to be the person who just whines and complains, I like to be the person who bring a solution to the table, so I would like to offer a suggestion. And before I get into it, I just want to make it clear that I fully appreciate the great deal of time and effort invested in giving this matter a thought. I know it wasn't an easy decision and I know you debated it for a while and I hope you don't find my words too harsh as I really mean well and want you to succeed.

The first thing is I believe that as oppose to chopping honorary members flat out and giving them some ultimatum, you try to understand them and actually ask them what they want. Will you ever come back? What will it take? Ask every person individually. If you really want to understand the problem then don't make a single post and expect answers, you have to get into those one on one conversations and actually hear the person and understand what they are saying, not just hear them, but really understand them.

The second thing is, a lot of you here supporting this chop would of gotten chopped by your definition when I took over, I cant name very many of you that I see here to have come back to support vVv Gaming when I took over. You all went away and it doesn't matter why. So if I cut ties with you back then, well you wouldn't be here now coming back trying to rebuild. I see the members of vVv Gaming come and go in waves and these honorary members return every so often to come back and try to help. They have long periods of inactivity but they do come back eventually and try to help, even if its a post here and there offering their peace of mind. I always found those helpful. By chopping them, we are officially saying that we do not appreciate the work they did. So why on earth would they want to come back later?

So the root of the problem as I see it is that the honorary role was meant to say, you did so much thank you. But it seems you want the honorary role to now also mean active to some degree. So why not archive (I wish I could find a better word to describe this) instead of chop. Why not still recognize people we are removing for what they did as oppose to flat out saying good bye. So the Honorary Role could still mean all those great things, but it can also mean the person is active to some degree and for those honorary members who no longer wish to be active at the present time, we simply move them to a historic role where their accomplishments are listed. We recognize the time and effort they put in, we acknowledge them still but also show that they are no longer actively involved in the community. And if they want to come back tomorrow and become active again, they can and we can move them back to honorary, it saves everyone feelings and we continue to thank them for their hard work. And we can decide on who to keep honorary and who to keep historic by talking to them individually. After all the work they put in, I think the least we can do is show them a bit of gratitude and respect by reaching out to them personally instead of some massive post of get active or get chopped.

Bottom line is, I feel this was the wrong move and I feel it sends a wrong message to anyone who wants to get involved with vVv Gaming moving forward.

Edited by vVv Bagzli

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I think what Bagzli says is the right approach.  It's worth reaching out to people and asking before just chopping. I suggested yesterday to maybe put a Facebook post and e-mail letting members know that there is new leadership and that the new leadership want to understand what we could offer them to come back.  

At this point, dialogue is important.  It doesn't mean you can't cut them, I am just suggesting of all the things to do,, you want more dialogue with people, not less. 

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54 minutes ago, vVv LordJerith said:

I think what Bagzli says is the right approach.  It's worth reaching out to people and asking before just chopping. I suggested yesterday to maybe put a Facebook post and e-mail letting members know that there is new leadership and that the new leadership want to understand what we could offer them to come back.  

At this point, dialogue is important.  It doesn't mean you can't cut them, I am just suggesting of all the things to do,, you want more dialogue with people, not less. 

Agreed but I believe Milkyy has reached out to everyone individually already. He is probably just waiting for the responses.

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That outreach was along the lines of "Hey, we're cutting ties, you don't matter anymore and if you want to stay in you better prove why you're worth it" Again, not in those words but that is how it comes of as. I honestly wouldn't want to come back after that kind of treatment either. What you should do is message each honorary member and ask them why they are no longer active and what would need to happen for them to become more active. Don't make ultimatums but instead learn about the problem and go making decisions when you have all the facts. And instead of chopping them for not getting active, come up with a solution where their work is still recognized. I offered one above and maybe its not the right one, but lets come up with one if its not.

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I think we could really expand upon our hall of fame section. If members have earned Honorary, maybe we can get snippets of who they are, what they have done for vVv, maybe a few words from whoever promoted them to Honorary. Could be a good way to show our appreciation for our history and generate a little more content around the site. 
 

edited because I can’t spell :)

Edited by vVv Minjaaa

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I feel chopping anyone with an honorary role is a mistake. I'm not in the best mindset to describe at length my opinion on this because I'm not happy with how some members have been treated through all of this, but wanted to voice my opinion. I feel like this is a pretty aggressive thing to do for a new group of staff, and maybe extending the deadline past 2 days might be a start.

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Hey everyone! i wanted to share some thoughts on some traditions we used to/still employ and forward thinking:

- I agree we should not reward inactive behavior.

- Ultimatums on chopping members should be after exploration of reasons tied to the individual provided they respond within a legible time.

- How do we get a community wide/division wide consensus to see where we lack as members/staff. (Community effort to bring the value). A townhall voice meeting? A google form to allow users time to fill out? Talking during CGN's?

- There was once a period where we were able to assess our contribution outside of just the division we chose to be part of hence Im in as a donator. How do we spotlight that and keep accountability on that?

- How has honorary members been selected anyway? I never truly knew but should be a vote with key people said member has influenced and been close with in conjunction with Staff/Board review. (AKA I should've been one lol jkjk)

- Define what honorary is:

>. Is it like for the history books to always honor them even after departure?

>. A crazy elite member who may serve well on the forums but games less?

>. Individuals like Milkky and Froot that may have been gone for such a long time but know that 'all roads lead back to vVv' as we said back in the day?

>. Crazy donator?

Ultimately it seems we need to do a pulse SCI survey to get the average mindset of the community to see the general and realistic guidelines we can implement as members to help better attract, engage, and retain newcomers and current folks.

Once we have that information what do we as members do with it?

I vote we:

- Memebrs town hall and create a 30-60-90 Day plan

- Divisional 30-60-90 Day plan

- Identify stakeholders in making this a reality

- Quarterly review with staff to see opportunities and successes.

 

Thanks all!!

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1 hour ago, vVv Bagzli said:

That outreach was along the lines of "Hey, we're cutting ties, you don't matter anymore and if you want to stay in you better prove why you're worth it" Again, not in those words but that is how it comes of as. I honestly wouldn't want to come back after that kind of treatment either. What you should do is message each honorary member and ask them why they are no longer active and what would need to happen for them to become more active. Don't make ultimatums but instead learn about the problem and go making decisions when you have all the facts. And instead of chopping them for not getting active, come up with a solution where their work is still recognized. I offered one above and maybe its not the right one, but lets come up with one if its not.

I completely agree, but were still going to have to give a timeline of response time, as we cant wait forever. I really like the idea of this approach, thank you for the awesome feedback! I'll talk with Milkyy tonight and we'll get a plan together. 

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I keep trying to react to posts but I’ve reacted to too many today apparently. 😂 Thank you Froot! If I can help you and Milkyy out during this at all please just let me know. 

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I can't, and won't speak on behalf of anybody but myself (so I'm a little biased).

In my experience of being a member, staff member, and now honorary member I have come to learn the long way of what defines each tier of member. @vVv B1zkit mentioned putting a definition for what makes an honorary member...honorary, so here's mine. Becoming an honorary member is truly the pinnacle of what defines this community. To become members, we have all undergone trials to prove we can belong to the pack, whether it be activity on these forums, (shoutout to) the shoutbox, whichever voice platform we have called home, various community game nights or tournaments, or just playing with other current members. When chosen, the ultimate test was the interview which has welcomed all of us to this family. The difference between members and staff members is small, and in theory should be non-existent. It is the duty of all members to uphold the standards set by the community, however, staff focus those efforts in one particular direction or role. Honorary members, in theory, embody the ultimate in characteristics reflected by the community as a whole having left their energy, passion, and accomplishment back into the community that originally gave them that opportunity. Many of them leave for personal reasons and are required to step away for those reasons. Chopping honorary members, regardless of their inactivity, is a decision I disagree with entirely. By chopping these honorary members, it is disregarding whatever contribution they have made which is the platform by which we all enjoy the sense of family and belonging that has been created.

 

To reiterate LordJerith's point: dialogue, in this scenario, is paramount. These members, all of them, have been in this family and have drifted away for reasons that are their own and 48 hours is an absurd amount of time to provide such an ultimatum. Throughout my involvement here: @vVv Bagzli is spot on and I believe his solution is at the very least a starting point in that dialogue.

 

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I agree with @vVv Saturn's message completely. Yes, its that Samona on the chopping block list and I'm not here to defend myself here as to why I shouldn't be there. I've been inactive and I will admit that. If there's a place for me here anymore ill get with the proper people and fix that but, as for now I want to address my feelings towards the Dismissal of Honorary members.

I Completely Disagree With It.

This saddens me when I see Honorary members being treated as if they have done nothing for the community. Everyone on that list has been a big contributor to the community and I think they deserve much much more than an Ultimatum like this.

Honorary Member wasn't something you worked towards it was something you earned. Whether it was for outstanding performance in a Live Tournament Event or something that was ultimately just for us as a community. So I don't think a "Chopping List" With a couple of our previous Executives Commenting "Chop Chop" and "Good" in a public manner the way they have is very "Community" like. When these people where the ones to help you build your community in the past and just have moved on to different things.

Sorry if this comes off as rude but I get this same feeling from the Chopping List Message as well. There is a different way of doing things as @vVv Bagzli said in his earlier post that I agree more with then how this is being done currently.

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22 hours ago, vVv Bagzli said:

That outreach was along the lines of "Hey, we're cutting ties, you don't matter anymore and if you want to stay in you better prove why you're worth it" Again, not in those words but that is how it comes of as. I honestly wouldn't want to come back after that kind of treatment either. What you should do is message each honorary member and ask them why they are no longer active and what would need to happen for them to become more active. Don't make ultimatums but instead learn about the problem and go making decisions when you have all the facts. And instead of chopping them for not getting active, come up with a solution where their work is still recognized. I offered one above and maybe its not the right one, but lets come up with one if its not.

Your first post was thoughtful.  This post, and I will be direct here, is dramatic.  It assumes the worst in their messaging.  Let's give them the benefit fo teh dounbbt. let's also imagine the three situations that mature honorary members will find themselves in:

  1. Honorary member doesn't game anymore and therefore understands they are getting chopped, and respects the decision
  2. They become active again
  3. They explain to Milkyy why they can't be active now, but would like to remain.

Let's not make this more than it is. Froot clearly said that he and Milkyy will take the feedback and make adjustments. 

Plus, Chop-chop lists have always woke people up and caused discussion.. I have made countless of these "tough love posts."  It shook the trees and got people who were absent to get involved.  The mature members reached out to me privately and explained why they were absent, and I often removed them from the list.  Yes, a few whined, but I used those as teaching moments. Bagzlis first post revealed that I wasn't clear with him on how to properly execute a chop-chop list, but he found hsi own way,  A way I did them, also.

Now, if you care about vVv and want to see it grow into something new, get involved.  If you don't, that's OK, also. 

I'm confident that Milkyy and Froot will do the right thing.  Change is coming, though.  Now is the time to think in new ways and think big. We are never going back to vVv of the old days. Just like the world will never be the same after COVID-19.  Think in new ways.  

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I have not posted in many moons, but here goes nothing. Usually my posts are scattered but eventually ending in a point so I will try to make sure I do not do that here. I can tell you right now that being a part of vVv over the years was amazing. We had so many good times just chatting in the shoutbox way back when, now when I would come back every now and again I would still see my last message in the shoutbox from a week ago. I believe what made vVv so awesome at it's prime was the people. People bring people, which in turn create a natural activity of fun and competitiveness. I used to come home from school just to sit in the shoutbox to see who was playing what, and what was being conversed about. It was a community to get excited about in the beginning and grew to a family. I am not sure what it is now as I have not been to involved and perhaps that is my fault. However, local friends have taken up a lot of my time after work and I only play video games to play with people these days. I am not sure how to bring the great culture back and so this message is probably pointless in the end. 

I do believe in the chop list as it can allow people to correct mistakes. I do not believe anyone who is inactive is going to care much about being chopped, but I do believe we should try and find out what makes them inactive. For me I can tell you I just do not see anyone on, no games to play with each other, no competitive team to root for, and no friends who just hop on discord to shoot the shit. What made vVv great is what we need to find again, and I believe it starts with Lord Jerith and Doomhammer as these are the 2 that made people want to come hang out. Perhaps a relaunch of a podcast is in order?

Yeah I lied, that was a jumbled mess.

 

Edit: You should make less chat channels in the discord and use it for voice comms or have 1 general chat for typing. 

 

-Perilous

Edited by vVv Perilous

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I'm not trying to be dramatic, I've seen few of these outreaches and that is how I perceived them and am only trying to reflect on them. Everything I wrote up to now I have thought it through and wrote it the way I did to to try and show the feelings they bring. In addition to all my comments before, I'm looking at this whole thing also as gains vs loss. I don't see nowhere near as much gain with the chop than how much I see on the loss side. A good quality of a leader is to be able to listen to his community and act on its wishes. Right now it seems there is a split right down the middle and going one way or another makes somebody not happy, so we should really find a happy medium. In any case, I'll walk away from this conversation knowing I tried my best whichever conclusion this may bring, but I wanted to try and I wanted to give it my best try because I feel that strongly about it. Thanks for listening.

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20 minutes ago, vVv Perilous said:

I have not posted in many moons, but here goes nothing. Usually my posts are scattered but eventually ending in a point so I will try to make sure I do not do that here. I can tell you right now that being a part of vVv over the years was amazing. We had so many good times just chatting in the shoutbox way back when, now when I would come back every now and again I would still see my last message in the shoutbox from a week ago. I believe what made vVv so awesome at it's prime was the people. People bring people, which in turn create a natural activity of fun and competitiveness. I used to come home from school just to sit in the shoutbox to see who was playing what, and what was being conversed about. It was a community to get excited about in the beginning and grew to a family. I am not sure what it is now as I have not been to involved and perhaps that is my fault. However, local friends have taken up a lot of my time after work and I only play video games to play with people these days. I am not sure how to bring the great culture back and so this message is probably pointless in the end. 

I do believe in the chop list as it can allow people to correct mistakes. I do not believe anyone who is inactive is going to care much about being chopped, but I do believe we should try and find out what makes them inactive. For me I can tell you I just do not see anyone on, no games to play with each other, no competitive team to root for, and no friends who just hop on discord to shoot the shit. What made vVv great is what we need to find again, and I believe it starts with Lord Jerith and Doomhammer as these are the 2 that made people want to come hang out. Perhaps a relaunch of a podcast is in order?

Yeah I lied, that was a jumbled mess.

 

Edit: You should make less chat channels in the discord and use it for voice comms or have 1 general chat for typing. 

 

-Perilous

Play Valorant with me babe ❤️🤗😂

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The way that I see Honorary Members, they are individuals that have positively influenced vVv and left their marks in history. While not exactly 1=1 equivalent, it would be similar to "chopping" past tournament achievements just because players are no longer active in vVv. So while the intent is in the right direction, it is the wrong approach to go about it.

Now, if y'all want to turn Honorary Members into Historic Members (exemplary members of the past), and create a new tier of membership where members are exemplary and are required to remain active, then yea that would be something that would work. So basically splitting Honorary into Historic Member (or any similar name) and then Exemplary Member (or similar name) for active ones. This keeps our history untouched and elevates current exemplary members where they should be. Eventually Exemplary Members will get archived into Historic Members as they retire.

As for my activity, I only have a Switch for console, I currently playing WoW classic. I recently started to play Valorant and have picked up some games with Amped and Stitches. I'm only active around here when my presence or help is needed. Also if anyone wants to play Valorant, hit me up.

 

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