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vVv BuLLeT

vVv BuLLeT #Truth

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When I joined vVv Gaming, I was joining an esports organization focused on providing its members with every opportunity possible to become a professional player in their game. When I joined vVv Gaming, I was joining an elite brilliant group of gamers because only 10% of people make it in. I was joining an organization with tournament wins across multiple consoles and continents. I was joining an organization that had people flocking to listen to its leaders on an esports podcast. Now I feel like I am in some pub clan, scraping the bottom and accepting anybody that is willing to give them attention. I am in an organization that tried to push competitive in the beginning of 2014 and heard backlash from its members because “we shouldn’t discriminate by skill level,” probably because they fucking suck. Now in 2015 we are a “social competitive” community, what the fuck is that? Now after all of this I am sure some people on staff are like, WHAT IS YOUR SOLUTION?. WHAT ARE YOU DOING TO SOLVE THE PROBLEM?  My solution is leaving and helping build the best eSports Organization possible.

Much love to Natural, Buzz, Bizkit, and the realest sKippy.

Edited by vVv BuLLeT

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When I joined vVv Gaming, I was joining an esports organization focused on providing its members with every opportunity possible to become a professional player in their game. When I joined vVv Gaming, I was joining an elite brilliant group of gamers because only 10% of people make it in. I was joining an organization with tournament wins across multiple consoles and continents. I was joining an organization that had people flocking to listen to its leaders on an esports podcast. Now I feel like I am in some pub clan, scraping the bottom and accepting anybody that is willing to give them attention. I am in an organization that tried to push competitive in the beginning of 2014 and heard backlash from its members because “we shouldn’t discriminate by skill level,” probably because they fucking suck. Now in 2015 we are a “social competitive” community, what the fuck is that? Now after all of this I am sure some people on staff are like, WHAT IS YOUR SOLUTION?. WHAT ARE YOU DOING TO SOLVE THE PROBLEM?  My solution is leaving and helping build the best eSports Organization possible.

Much love to Natural, Buzz, Bizkit, and the realest sKippy.

#TheTruth...Much love Bullet

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what, no special love for me? We are like so alike. We're both was in that cbus meme contest and we both like our grills small.

Well now the jokes are out.....

Good luck on your future endeavors, I was always enjoyed you're hardcore no sugar coated feedback when it's needed for CoD, though sometimes I interpret them in the most negative way.

All roads lead back to vVv, eventually.

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Seeing this actually made me a lil sad, bullet has been a friend of mine for years, awesome player and cool friend.  It's sad to see u leave vVv but I see your point of view.  I wish you the best of luck on all future endeavors!  

As time goes on people change, games change on pro circuits and organizations change, some changes will be liked and others won't, but when those things change decisions on will be made whether you stick with it or not.  I do believe a lot of what bullet said is true, but I have made a decision a while ago that competitive gaming just isn't something I want to focus on anymore, myself personally, but at the same time this has been my gaming family for years, and it would break my heart to leave and take all the username, gamertags and change them, without my V's i feel naked.  He does bring up a valid point what did happen to HoF we used to fill on a often basis, what happen to that competitive drive we used to have, again it could be there and I may even be wrong, the game I have been focusing on is WoW, I also know that as time goes on things have to change and the social competitive gamer to me, while may be a great change and results from that maybe amazing, it doesn't completely click in my head, but again that's just me and my opinion alone.  I also hope that some come back to WoW too =) 680 item level 17/17 normal, 16/17 heroic and 2/17 mythic, i came a long way from not knowing how to play WoW to a really decent player, very great game, very very challenging at time lol

Bullet, you'll always be a friend of mine whether gaming or outside of it, ur a great individual with great focus on what you need to do to get the job done!  It really sad to see you go, but i completely understand where your coming from, I do hope at some point you do come back even if its just for a quick hello, =*(

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Good luck pursing your E-sports career. I never met you before which seems weird since your under LoL, but I hope you find the right place to help you and your specific needs in this industry. 

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I agree with a lot of what you said BuLLeT, except I also take note of the changes in the esports scene. In 2007 you could still get together 4 of your buddies, split a hotel room, and drive to an MLG and take home top 8 pretty easily because at its core MLG was about community. Over time, and especially after the release of SC2, that changed. MLG became the premier global tournament for competitive gaming and was less interested in providing an awesome experience for social competitive gamers showing up to attend a big tournament. Instead, they are now more interested in securing sponsorships and investment, and being the place the best talent in the world comes to compete. That's not a bad thing, it just isn't an event that supports community anymore.

Since vVv has always been community focused (this has been both our strength and the core of our ability to remain financially neutral and stable), as MLG moved away from being a place for community to gather and more about being highly sponsored teams with salaries looking to win some extra spending cash, prestige for their streams, and recognition as one of the top players in the world and the sponsor dollars that can bring in, we've also had to adapt. The esports scene has left community behind. Not only are you unable to be competitively viable with a group of friends at events like MLG and Dreamhack, but now you're competing against professional gamers from around the world. This includes countries like Korea where being a professional gamer is a highly desirable and highly supported career choice. Now you have to practice 10+ hours per day, with no guarantee of security or income, just to make it into the top 32 of the most competitive games out there. You have to do more to make top 8 and be guaranteed at least a living wage.

Esports has adapted to a globally competitive circuit, but the west has lagged behind both in terms of being able to support those with the dream to be esports athletes and give them the security necessary to make the pursuit of that goal their primary focus. Even in the LCS, arguably the most stable career in esports at the moment, you have to train hard to break out of the Challenger Series and get a guaranteed salary from Riot.

So the question becomes: what is more important? We can help rising esports athletes attend competitions and become known so that an organization with more resources can come along and buy them from us, or we can return to our roots and build a community based on the what made the early days of esports great: competitive gaming where you can get together your friends and come play, where you meet other people interested in the same games as you and get excited about it, where you can meet up at live events and have life-changing experiences. That's what my vision of creating awesome experiences for social, competitive gamers means. I have not done the best job of explaining it over the past few months, nor have I done the best job of executing on it (working on it sorry!), but the strategy and vision remain solid cornerstones behind what I'm trying to accomplish and I think fill the gap of what most really good, really competitive people want. I personally oversaw the community interaction portion of the Challenger Series LoL team and I honestly have never seen the community more disengaged nor felt so awkward as I did promoting their games when it was just loss after loss. People want teams who can win. The problem is that other orgs already have those teams. Even if we could offer more money there's no guarantee they'd come to us. So what's the problem worth solving? Building the infrastructure to encourage and support competition, identify talent, and help competitive players to succeed. But I can't do that and focus on teams.

And that doesn't even mean we are giving up on the idea of having a team. Sun Down is spearheading a new initiative to find and recruit teams for LoL, CoD, and CSGO as of this week. I'm excited to see what he can bring to the table and working with him to help those teams interact with the community in such a way as to keep them engaged and in high morale, even if they lose a lot.

So, yes, things have changed. We have changed. I don't expect everyone to love those changes. If you feel the need to go, if you feel that you can fulfill your purpose better elsewhere, good luck and have fun! I still believe vVv Gaming has the best community in competitive gaming and that we will only get better over the next year.

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I agree with a lot of what you said BuLLeT, except I also take note of the changes in the esports scene. In 2007 you could still get together 4 of your buddies, split a hotel room, and drive to an MLG and take home top 8 pretty easily because at its core MLG was about community. Over time, and especially after the release of SC2, that changed. MLG became the premier global tournament for competitive gaming and was less interested in providing an awesome experience for social competitive gamers showing up to attend a big tournament. Instead, they are now more interested in securing sponsorships and investment, and being the place the best talent in the world comes to compete. That's not a bad thing, it just isn't an event that supports community anymore.

Since vVv has always been community focused (this has been both our strength and the core of our ability to remain financially neutral and stable), as MLG moved away from being a place for community to gather and more about being highly sponsored teams with salaries looking to win some extra spending cash, prestige for their streams, and recognition as one of the top players in the world and the sponsor dollars that can bring in, we've also had to adapt. The esports scene has left community behind. Not only are you unable to be competitively viable with a group of friends at events like MLG and Dreamhack, but now you're competing against professional gamers from around the world. This includes countries like Korea where being a professional gamer is a highly desirable and highly supported career choice. Now you have to practice 10+ hours per day, with no guarantee of security or income, just to make it into the top 32 of the most competitive games out there. You have to do more to make top 8 and be guaranteed at least a living wage.

Esports has adapted to a globally competitive circuit, but the west has lagged behind both in terms of being able to support those with the dream to be esports athletes and give them the security necessary to make the pursuit of that goal their primary focus. Even in the LCS, arguably the most stable career in esports at the moment, you have to train hard to break out of the Challenger Series and get a guaranteed salary from Riot.

So the question becomes: what is more important? We can help rising esports athletes attend competitions and become known so that an organization with more resources can come along and buy them from us, or we can return to our roots and build a community based on the what made the early days of esports great: competitive gaming where you can get together your friends and come play, where you meet other people interested in the same games as you and get excited about it, where you can meet up at live events and have life-changing experiences. That's what my vision of creating awesome experiences for social, competitive gamers means. I have not done the best job of explaining it over the past few months, nor have I done the best job of executing on it (working on it sorry!), but the strategy and vision remain solid cornerstones behind what I'm trying to accomplish and I think fill the gap of what most really good, really competitive people want. I personally oversaw the community interaction portion of the Challenger Series LoL team and I honestly have never seen the community more disengaged nor felt so awkward as I did promoting their games when it was just loss after loss. People want teams who can win. The problem is that other orgs already have those teams. Even if we could offer more money there's no guarantee they'd come to us. So what's the problem worth solving? Building the infrastructure to encourage and support competition, identify talent, and help competitive players to succeed. But I can't do that and focus on teams.

And that doesn't even mean we are giving up on the idea of having a team. Sun Down is spearheading a new initiative to find and recruit teams for LoL, CoD, and CSGO as of this week. I'm excited to see what he can bring to the table and working with him to help those teams interact with the community in such a way as to keep them engaged and in high morale, even if they lose a lot.

So, yes, things have changed. We have changed. I don't expect everyone to love those changes. If you feel the need to go, if you feel that you can fulfill your purpose better elsewhere, good luck and have fun! I still believe vVv Gaming has the best community in competitive gaming and that we will only get better over the next year.

For me MLG events were never about social experiences, and the only life changing experiences were playing on mainstage in front of a crowd. I went to MLG events to win, I was willing to sacrifice countless hours of my childhood for that chance of becoming immortalized in MLG history. Now a days I don't compete anymore, but I still have that drive to win.

 

You see the roots of vVv Gaming differently than I do. I see the roots as an exclusive community for top gamers to compete. I will never forget what Jerry said in a meeting on mumble, "I created vVv Gaming because I hated playing with people that suck." This honestly just isn't the place for me right now. I will always be around and willing to help the CoD division out with any ideas and questions.

 

Also, my organization has picked up two of the top amateur in CS:GO with no guarantee for money, products, or travel. They have the same classic vVv drive to win that I have, and they are performing well and favored to be pro next season. We are doing our damned best to run down sponsors and create a fruitful environment for our players. If a bigger org comes in and buys them, they will have to pay us. With that money we will be able to provide more for the next team, etc. All we want is to help create a winning environment with teams, when they win we win, and that is what I wanted with vVv.

Edited by vVv BuLLeT

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Well either that's an oversimplification of what Jerry actually meant, or it's just where him and I differ as people, and thus leaders. I actually don't mind playing with people who suck at the game. In fact, I regularly duoqueue with bronze community members in LoL, so long as they are willing and able to learn and improve and I'm not hampering their development by doing so. What I can't stand is people who suck...at being people. The toxic asshats, the bigoted racists and homophobes, the people who won't turn their gaze inward and learn from thoughtful introspection, people not going anywhere in life, those are people I can't stand. As a result that is the community I have to create.

I can try to build the community Jerry wants, but without him at the helm steering vVv I will never be successful. The vision of players coming to vVv to get sponsored to go to events and compete isn't what gets me up in the morning willing to spend hours of my day investing in this community. What I want are the people who want to progress in their lives and accomplish something meaningful. The people who want to develop real life skills, get hired by the gaming industry, start their own companies, invest in solving the big problems of esports and competitive gaming, build a real community that actually invests their time and effort supporting each other and not just in-game playing games because people come first (not games). That's the community I want to build.

That doesn't mean I can't work with other people to sponsor teams or that vVv will never have a competitive team while I'm President, I just need people I can work with who can steer those efforts so that they are given the time, attention, and resources necessary to succeed. And that doesn't mean you're wrong for leaving for the reasons you listed either. I think it comes down to what you want out of an organization, and if you aren't looking for community or an awesome social experience where people develop meaningful connections then I'm probably the wrong leader for you. So like I said before good luck and have fun!

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Good luck man,

i do remember how rewarding it felt to receive my V's shit was kinda difficult lol :)

i agree with both you and sugarbears points things just change sometimes i guess.

Edited by vVv Papabear

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I think this is an interesting take.  I think a dramatic forum post is not the way to handle it, but here we are.  If you are so committed to this, Bullet, why have you never come to me or Rob and said, "I'd like a shot on staff to help do this?"

Anyone who wants to take a leadership role and think they can get the job done, just come talk to me. Meanwhile, as Sugarbear said, it's not his personal passion. I encourage anyone who feels they want to have impact, and make things better, to reach out to me.

vVv has and always be about it's community. It can only be as good as all of you are willing to make it.  

How can I help?

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Well, I basically agree and wanted to share this message from a PM I have with Rob, Jerry and SB about what my personal gameplan and vision moving forward is. I think if you take a look at it there's some really good opportunities that match your goals to get involved. If you want to chat let me know.

 

Our gameplan moving forward is to try and incorporate competitive teams into the community ideal that Greg is try to reach. We met again on Monday to discuss how we were going to move forward and I've begun looking into LoL, CoD and CS:GO teams that would be interested in working with vVv. The goal with each of these teams is to aim for once just outside the upper echelon of the competitive tier, but have some marketable quality about them (either they compete in a bunch of smaller tournaments and win, have a streamer who is very active etc) and promote the shit out of whatever the team is doing, support them through SteelSeries gear and competition entry fees (also a good platform to go reach out to other sponsors, not necessary though) and have a requirement of doing at least one hour a week of community involvement (AMA, show up to a game night, make a video being the 3 base options). The idea behind this is with a competitive presence across these 3 games (FPS pc, FPS console, League) we will have a more diverse pull and be able to bring in not only more people to the site, but different type of people. I have also reached out to FatalStryke who is doing some really cool things in the Smash 4 scene with his crew (though there is hesitancy given the past). The vision would then be to have these 3 competitive teams, ideally a self-sufficient smash crew which would draw into our already existing LoL and CoD communities, with the possibility of being able to grow a CS:GO one.

 

Since Monday I have been figuring out the best way to secure and reach out to these teams. I have asked C Wide to look into CS:GO, JayC will be helping me investigate LoL and Buzz said he would actively look in both LoL and CoD. On top of reaching out to these people, I contacted a couple of players on my friends list with Challenger teams asking about leads, as well as talked with ShorterAce about the timing and who I should be looking into to. CoD and LoL are both in a little bit of awkward places team wise given the USA champs and NACS just beginning. My next plan is to actively start reaching out to the public for people to contact me. My gameplan is to post reddit posts on the CSGO, CoDCompetitive and LoL subreddit saying we are actively looking to partner with a team and list the requirements. These of course will be matched with forum, twitter and facebook posts in order to get the correct exposure.

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Take care bullet and i hope to see you at an event sometime soon.. good luck in your endeavors man!!! and never lose your competitive spirit 

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Sorry to hear about you leaving.  To a degree I see where you are coming from with "non-competitive competitive" community point.  vVv has a strong history of winning several tournaments in several different continents.

Than that died off.  Now vision's evolve over time, however one could argue that vVv was not willing to make the necessary adaptations to stay competitively viable.  I always thought the vVv community was at its best when it did have "pro" teams.  It gave us something to cheer and root for.  It gave us role models to look up to and bragging rights when we win.

There are also some other things that I see that are problematic with the community but this is not the venue for that discussion.

 

Best of luck Bullet, I'm sure you'll do well wherever you go.

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While i haven't been around vVv quite as much as i used to, i never felt like vVv Gaming was about being elite nor only accepting of the top 10%. I have been a member ever since i first joined over 5 years ago now and I was picked up in an MMO by random chance, got to know the community and figured out that vVv Gaming was about a community of gamers who are competitive focused and want a place that they can play and learn with others of the same mind set. I've never competed in a major tournament nor do i have any major accomplishments in e-sports, yet here i am still a member of vVv for 5 years, and I love this place.

 

Perhaps we just see things differently Bullet, however vVv has always been, in my eyes, about community. We have picked up and sponsored teams over the past five years; but like SugerBear said before, the e-sports scene was far different back in 2010 and you could get away with a team of friends, pay for their room and entry, and they could place decently at MLG. Even still if it wasn't for the community with a passion behind it, i don't think vVv Gaming would be the unique place that it is, rather it would be just another e-sports clan.

 

While you may disagree, if you wanted to see a change in a certain direction for vVv Gaming, it would have been best to apply for staff or at least continue to have open dialog with staff members about what you would like to see vVv do and pursue. Knowing Jerry as long as i have, i know that anyone with an idea and a will to do it will always be supported here and in fact you would likely have a lot more help (both financially if it was required and a pool of gamers who love the competitive aspect of gaming) by working with vVv Gaming. 

 

Either way, i wish you the best on your new project and hope you find what you are looking for. I just wished to offer these words as a different perspective from another long time member of vVv Gaming.

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