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For those unfamiliar with the current discussion about the fighting game community, know that it started with an article that appeared on SRK (Shoryuken) written by Tom, the co-owner of the EVO event. He stated that the article was in response to a rant by Evil Genius’s COO SirScoots. Basically, this article explained that eSports leagues get it all wrong and don’t understand fighting games or the fighting game community. In short, if you want to “get it,” you have to partner with Tom because he understands all this and eSports leagues do not.

Interested in both his “version” of history, and who he was as a person, we had Tom on Round 95 of the Loser’s Bracket. We asked him to explain his position of “I reject the idea that the only path to more money for players is through the traditional eSports model.” Listen for yourself. We had no issues with Tom. Of course, he does avoid a few questions and his answers are shaky at times. Let's just say there were some statements that others had a very different recollection, especially when he blames leagues for not having Capcom games when he knows that Capcom won't give them the license. Yea, I challenge him.

Three days later, Trouble Brewing (Starcade) wrote this article about the show and the FGC. Clearly, Tom’s shakiness to answering questions meant that “eSports leagues do not seem to be able to relate to us on a very basic level, as demonstrated by many of the questions asked to Tom Cannon (inkblot).” I was tickled with the idea that asking questions was an "inability to relate at a very basic level." He ends this article with a call to inaction. He tells the fighting game community, “Don't buy those MLG sticks. Don't buy their T-Shirts. Don’t watch their streams. Don't attend their events. Despite what they say, they are not here to support us. They are here to profit from our hard work.” I want you to know that not one member of the EVO ownership outwardly condemned this article.

Following that article on Monday, Dec 12, David aka UltraDavid, Evo caster and attorney, wrote this article. I was stunned, but I also smiled at the sheer brilliance of this article. David, like many lawyers, has great skill in rhetoric, and he flashed his prowess in the art of discourse in this piece. Although I would love to attack his article and explain how MLG is so different from NASL, or how he does not get Halo, GoW or CoD, I will instead address this gem later. Stay tuned, you might be surprised.

Anyway, the following day we had Team Spooky on, and although I upset him when I said that Tom was looking to protect his piece of the pie (EVO), the show ended on a positive note. Of course, Spooky’s fans rallied to him “keeping it real” and Tom’s brother made a melodramatic post about how “extremely vitriolic” I was and how we were “extremely irresponsible” in how we handled the show. Again, here is Episode 96 . I will let you decide how we handled it.

Please take special note when Spooky says, “Shove it up your ass” and how I handle that. On YouTube, his fans end it right there. I think what follows is even more important. Again, I leave this all to you to explore and decide. We’ll call it “convenient” that they leave out the rest of that discussion on YouTube.

Now, it’s important to note that many top fighting players such as Justin Wong, Marn, WolfKrone, PR Balrog and Alex Valle have tweeted POSITIVE things about seeing leagues include fighting games.

Other examples include...

So, this brings us to the BIG question:

If the IPL and MLG want fighting games, and the top players want to see their games in these leagues, why are those involved with EVO not enthusiastically supporting this?

There are three answers to that question, one given By Tom, the EVO co-owner, one by respected community member Trouble Brewing and one by EVO caster and attorney UltraDavid. It is important to note that NONE of these articles addresses the Tweets made by Justin Wong, Marn, WolfKrone, PR Balrog and Alex Valle in SUPPORT of the leagues. Here is a simple reduction of their three positions. I will refer to them affectionately as the “Three Stooges.”

  • Moe (Tom) says that eSports leagues do not get fighting and always gets it wrong. FGC is unique and leagues don’t get it.
  • Larry (David) says the fighting game community is too different and too rowdy for leagues. FGC is unique. It has unique demographics and a unique culture.
  • Curly (Trouble Brewing) says that leagues are trying to profit from the fighting game community’s hard work. They don’t get the uniqueness of the FGC. Don’t care about it.

Let’s pause here for a minute. I want to point out the common theme of unique. FGC is just SOOOO unique. I want to remind to you all of something:

UniqueDemotivator.jpg

Sorry, that just had to be said.

Now, I do love the fact the Three Stooges are telling their own audience that they “are so special and no one understands you the way we do.” It’s really a great message. The politics is brilliant:

eSports leagues are a bunch of corporate suits who just want to profit from you and don’t understand you. They would destroy our culture and ruin the fighting game community.

Now, I am sure a bunch of Gears of War and Halo players are saying, “Huh? WTF? You’re not fucking good!” CoD players are like, “got ham?” Stracraft players are like “How BM!” and League of Legends players are like “Really?!” Anyone who has ever been to an MLG event before is like “WHAT THE FUCK are they talking about?”

Trust me, I have no clue either. I don't wear ties.

This brings me to that little gem of an article by David who wanted to give us a history lesson. Mind you, I am 41-years old. I was putting quarters in Space Invaders when I was 9 years old in 1979 when it was in our local store and 7-11. I played in arcades in Chicago starting in 1981. I played Street Fighter when I was 17. I returned coke bottles for deposits and aluminum cans to recyclers so I could get loose change to turn into quarters to play games. I saved lunch money during the week so I could get to the arcade. David sir, I can assure you, you have NO CLUE what arcade culture is about, you fucking poser. That’s right, you have no fucking clue. See, I don’t need the Three Stooges to tell me about arcade culture because I lived it. I rode my bike to the arcade in rain, Chicago winds and Chicago snow storms. After I got my driver's license and car, I spent way too much time and money at the downtown Aladdin's Castle. My parents hated it. So, you can take your history lesson and shove it up your ass you condescending prick. I mean this in my typical kind and loving way, of course. :-)

However, I do think David is right. Surprised?! Don’t be. I agree. We do NOT want fighting games. He’s right. Read his article! Here are some important warnings to us.

"You might have heard about us trying to get hype with side bets."

He’s right. Do really want betting at our events? We saw what happened with Brawl. We value good sportsmanship and spirit of competition. We don’t let side bets influence our players performance. We act swiftly and harshly when it is revealed.

“...our community is very deeply different in ways that make us less accepting of and less fitting for professional tournaments and corporate influence even as they’ve given us the ability to stay so cohesive for so long. We are very deeply ourselves, and not many of us want to see that go away.”

Do we really want a community who believes that their “cohesiveness” comes at the price of being less accepting of and less fitting for professional tournaments and corporate influence? We are working so hard to build roads to bigger and better brand supports. We want our players to be household names. Can we afford to let the FGC fuck it up for us?

“...the SC community selected for a more business friendly, professional-ready culture and individuals who are much more likely to know how to navigate the professional corporate world.”

“Arcades weren’t for girls...”

I know MLG events have plenty of women. Players, fans, wives, sisters, daughters. . . yup, we know how to treat ladies. Can we risk a misogynic culture affecting our women’s experience?

“...this crappy negative feedback loop started, with young males getting used to being able to speak negatively about women, which put women off...”

Do I really want my sister or Mother to be openly disrespected at an MLG event?

“And as I said, our in person culture has not always been the most welcoming to women, so we’ve consistently missed out on a gigantic chunk of players.”

Again, most players and fans enjoy meeting members of the sex they are attracted to, and we want them to feel comfortable. Can we risk having their “in person culture” make our wives, mothers, sisters and daughters feel unwelcomed?

“The fighting game community is louder, more hype, and more insular. It also tends to be less wealthy, less educated, much more racially diverse, much less diverse in gender, and not quite as big.”

Do we really want a loud, rowdy, gambling, insulated, less affluent, less-educated, woman-disrespecting community? Do we?! Do we want to risk the FGC fucking up what we have worked so hard to build?

"Our new players have largely adopted the established culture and tend to fit the same demographic molds as their predecessors.”

Do we really want a community stuck in their culture? Is this good for us? Our sponsors? Our future partners?

“But keep in mind how arcade culture looks at outsiders and how our demographics aren’t quite as business friendly.”

Can we risk a culture that is less business friendly? Do we want to GROW eSports?

“Nobody should be mad about this. The goal of any business, including my goal with my own, is to make money. “

Yea, no one’s gonna doubt you or Tom on this one!

“That said, I also don’t think it’ll be the end of the world if we don’t work with professional gaming organizations.”

Nope, I agree. It sure won’t.

“We also don’t really feel the need to work with eSports.”

Do we really want to partner with a community that does not “feel the need?” Do our sponsors, supporters and partners want us to work with a community that does not “feel the need?”

Surprised? Don’t be. David is a caster and well respected member of the FGC. If he tells us that the FGC is bad for us, why argue? I know, the FGC top players get screwed, and they don’t get to grow their audience, but. . . so what? I mean, if the Three Stooges hold more sway over the FGC than their top players, then maybe we should take David’s advice and stay far away.

I know, we should all try and encourage people to bring out their best! But seriously, if the FGC community leaders like the Three Stooges respond with fear, and warn us about how bad their community is. . . what choice do we have? THEY certainly are not trying to move their culture to be more business friendly, so why should we? If anything, we should protect all our partners and warn them about why the FGC is not a good partner.

We will continue to support and sponsor top fighters (as will EG and other organizations). Funny, when we picked up REO and CD Jr, and when Latif got sponsored by Razer, all the community tweets were positive, congratulatory and supportive. I guess those members didn't get the memos from the Three Stooges. Maybe these three "leaders" are POOR examples of what the fighting community really feels? I wonder if the fighting community thinks of itself and sees itself the same way that David writes about them?

David ends his article by attacking the word eSports (a word many of us don’t like, but’s it’s shorter than competitive gaming or competitive video gaming) by saying, “You know the only thing we’re opposed to? The word “esports.” Shit is straight clown shoes son, for reals.”

Well, I’m gonna put my clown shoes on, walk over to McDonalds and ask those clowns, “Have you heard of eSports? I have these two fighting game players who I think can add a lot to your latest marketing campaign targeting . . . ”

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OH SNAP!

great response jerry, I'm still trying to figure out why SRK responded the way they did, as you guys on TLB didn't ask or say anything really negative, you just wanted to have a discussion on Tom's article and why he felt that way...

I did notice something interesting when i read David's article, when i closed it 50 more windows popped up of the article... not saying it was intentional, but a hell of a way to say "look how many ppl read this article!"

but i digress, It is obvious the talking heads of the FGC don't want to work with eSports even when people like Sundance would be willing to talk and work with them. I guess when they say " eSports doesn't get it" it means they dont get we want to keep it to ourselves.

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I just want to say that SRK and Street Fighter are not the entire FGC. It's a big part of it, and the most successful definitely. I know the people that have had their opinions heard are regarded as "leaders" of the community or whatever (which in turn influences the otherwise opinion-less "peons" to their side), but in the end it's just opinions of people in the community. They feel like MLG or "eSports" wouldn't be a good fit for the FGC. So what? You can either convince them otherwise, or talk to someone else.

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I just want to say that SRK and Street Fighter are not the entire FGC. It's a big part of it, and the most successful definitely. I know the people that have had their opinions heard are regarded as "leaders" of the community or whatever (which in turn influences the otherwise opinion-less "peons" to their side), but in the end it's just opinions of people in the community. They feel like MLG or "eSports" wouldn't be a good fit for the FGC. So what? You can either convince them otherwise, or talk to someone else.

Well said, and believe it or not, most of us do know that. Maybe more "some elses" will emerge.

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I just want to say that SRK and Street Fighter are not the entire FGC. It's a big part of it, and the most successful definitely. I know the people that have had their opinions heard are regarded as "leaders" of the community or whatever (which in turn influences the otherwise opinion-less "peons" to their side), but in the end it's just opinions of people in the community. They feel like MLG or "eSports" wouldn't be a good fit for the FGC. So what? You can either convince them otherwise, or talk to someone else.

Agreed, the real convincing will come down to Capcom, WB Games, Bandai-Namco, etc. to work out something with MLG, WCG, Dreamhack, etc. for fighting games to get into eSports. The Support of the FGC would help, but if say WB works a deal with MLG and in turn MLG can offer $15,000 tournaments at their events, than people will attend no matter how much complaining SRK does.

Edited by vVv Blazek

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I'll be honest, I only registered here to write a response, I'm a member [not a prominent member, but a member nonetheless] of the FGC.

I'll be frank, why would you write something like this? What were you trying to accomplish in writing this article other than make people angry? Yes the fighting game community is very hesitant to work with MLG, but there is a difference between being hesitant to cross a bridge and burning it down completely, and an article like this only really seems to facilitate the latter. I'm not going to pretend that people in the FGC haven't done this as well, I know it's been done, but if people are trying to get these two communities to work together could we agree that something like this is not a step in the right direction?

Of course not everyone feels the same as the prominent figures that you mentioned, but when you lump everyone together for the sake of disrespect them, and THEN disrespect certain individuals on top of that, you essentially put everyone on the defensive.

I'm just saying that there is a way to help build a single community and facilitate cohesion, and it has to be better than this. This doesn't go just for you, it goes for both sides.

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Agreed, the real convincing will come down to Capcom, WB Games, Bandai-Namco, etc. to work out something with MLG, WCG, Dreamhack, etc. for fighting games to get into eSports. The Support of the FGC would help, but if say WB works a deal with MLG and in turn MLG can offer $15,000 tournaments at their events, than people will attend no matter how much complaining SRK does.

I think you both totally misunderstood my point. Doing the above is exactly what the FGC is "afraid" will happen. That the community won't be taken into consideration or even communicated with. I've heard this more than once by you guys, the "maybe we'll just do it anyway" attitude. You're trying to force this thing that just won't work if it's forced. Again, which is exactly the wrong attitude to have. For this to be successful, there needs to be a collaboration. If this were to ever be done, it will be done correctly. And sure, you guys can just say fuck it and try it anyway. But without the consent of the FGC, how successful do you think you're going to be? If your response to that question is "who cares", then you just prove what a lot of people are already saying and why eSports has a negative connotation in the FGC. Another response I know will stem from that is that you guys ARE willing to communicate and collaborate. That it's the FGC side that needs to "get on board". Well with insult hurling articles like this, you're definitely not helping the cause and in fact making dents that just look ugly.

I honestly think, IF DONE CORRECTLY, that MLG could be good for the FGC. But the shit that's going on right now is becoming beyond childish. Everyone needs to drop their guards, and discuss this rationally and sanely. So everyone just take a breather, cool the fuck down, and we can go from there.

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Hi, I'm a guy in the fighting game scene. I'm not well known outside of my own area, so maybe my opinion here really doesn't matter. I'm the guy who goes out to local tournaments and may go to EVO to play, meet others and so on.

The last two Loser Bracket podcasts have been excellent even if I don't agree with everything. I'm glad that you guys have shed some light on the subject of fighting games and esports.

First off, I think one of the main reasons people in the FGC are pissed about what happened in the last episode of the podcast is the continual insinuation that Tom trying to "protect his turf" means "he's trying to protect the money he is making with EVO". I don't know Tom on any personal level, but it is generally accepted that he doesn't run EVO because of the money. It sounded to me like Jerry was trying to make Tom sound greedy and if that's actually the impression Jerry has of Tom, I believe it's incorrect. Where Tom is definitely protecting his turf is in terms of scheduling and booking. Does that mean that we think Tom's completely altruistic? No, he has a right to make money from his efforts at hosting the largest annual fighting event and to want to keep the money coming in, but I think Jerry is way overstating the importance of money in all this. I haven't been listening to the vVv podcasts for very long, but it's very clear that Jerry's a really outspoken guy and a really opinionated guy (he seems very willing to listen to the other side of an argument from what I can tell) and I'll say it, the fighting game community can be very easily offended. I'm not saying that this subject has to be handled with kids gloves or anything, but I think that some tact on both sides would really bring the debate to the right place.

While David's excellently written article makes some points that I can agree with (at least partially), I feel that his list of reasons why the fighting game community is unique - if you want to call it that - is correct and right on the money, but on the wrong side of the argument. I think that all those differences - racial makeup, hype, social, economical - are reasons we *should* be wanting to bring the fighting game community into the esports family. I feel that we bring something really unique to the table that can be a real positive for both sides and perhaps make esports more interesting to everyone. Cross-pollination doesn't need to be a bad thing here. Maybe we'll start to see NASL Starcraft events getting hype, maybe we'll see an MLG event where there's a mix of the hype and professionalism, much like we currently see on the EVO stream.

I don't see any reason for MLG to want to stomp on grassroots events if they started running fighting games. Even if they were run on the same weekend as a community event, they would be two radically different types of events. An MLG event would - forgive me if I'm being ignorant here, I haven't attended an MLG event myself - likely be a mix of the various games they run with probably one or two fighting games whereas the local fighting game scene events are going to be ALL fighting games. More of a fighting game fanatic? You've got the grassroots event. More of a fan of a specific fighting game MLG is running? You've got that too. Again though, I don't see MLG trying to stomp on any local events anyways so the above is likely moot.

So how do we proceed? First off, I'd really like to see all the attacking back and forth from both sides end and get guys like Adam from MLG and Tom and other fighting game organizers together and sit down and really hammer out the issues and leave all this petty stuff behind. Adam seemed to know what needed to be done to do things right by fighting game players according to his appearance and he knows who to turn to when he's not sure. Adam, hire Tom, hire ShinBlanka, hire some of these other TOs. It'll give the FGC the ability to relax knowing that someone they trust is helping to ensure that an MLG event would be up to the FGC standards and we can move on towards the real issue stopping everything here, Capcom. I'm sure that once they see that FGC guys are involved, they'll drop their objections.

Is it right or fair to blame current day MLG for things that happened so long ago that no one seems to have proper memory of the issues that happened when leagues tried to run fighting games previously? A lot of time has passed and I really think it's time to give it a real shot and see what happens. And if it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out but at least we tried to create something positive. As a player and as a fan, I really do want to see the Justin Wongs, the Mike Rosses, the UltraDavids, the Spooky and LevelUps be able to do this stuff full-time if they so desired. And even if MLG doesn't run fighting games exactly as we in the FGC would like to see them run, their events aren't going to stop guys like Nerd Josh from walking into Next Level in New York. They aren't going to stop Combofiend from walking into Super Arcade in California. They aren't going to stop FlashMetroid from going to CEO.

It's natural to be scared when you've built up something like the fighting game community has, but I think the community is nowhere near as fragile as the vocal FGC naysayers seem to think. I'm going to keep hitting buttons no matter what happens. I'm going to keep trying to grow my local scene no matter what happens. I'm going to keep running tournaments, I'm going to keep trying to help others run their events, I'm going to keep going to events no matter what... so let's give it an honest shot.

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Had to create an account just to point out some stuff I disagree with. First off, I'll say that I'm interested and hopeful that there will be some sort of relationship between the esports community and the FGC. There's huge potential for both parties in this.

Could you explain to me how these people are leaders in the FGC? I guess some people outside the FGC would assume Tom Cannon is a 'leader' because he organizes the largest tournament and has done much for the community but to classify a commentator and some random forum poster as a leader is just absurd. Nobody in the FGC views Ultradavid as a leader or believes he has any sort of influence. He's mostly known for his commentary work. As for Trouble Brewing, I'll be honest, I have no idea who he is. My point is, just because these articles garner attention doesn't mean the authors of said articles have influence on the community as a whole.

In regards to the Ultradavid article, it seems you only bothered mention points that you didn't like. There's a section in the article that talks about how the FGC/esports could work together (he even commended vVV gaming in regards to your players!). He believes this whole deal can work if everyone understands each other. To answer your question: "I wonder if the fighting community thinks of itself and sees itself the same way that David writes about them?", I agree with some parts and also disagree with others. Overall, I have no reason to attack ultradavid or the article because it clearly states before the article even begins, that it only represents his opinions and no one else.

I believe there is ignorance and unnecessary hatred going on in both the FGC and the competitive gaming leagues. In order for anything to work, there has to be mutual respect and understanding from both parties. People need to be educated, people need to go to other events (an MLG event or a FGC major) to even have a valid discussion on whether there needs to be some collaboration.

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Look at it this way, people.

This kind of interaction, this discourse with top tier professional organizations, is the inclusiveness you all want. This is the chance to have open conversation from both parties. Instead of acting like children and bickering.

Let's hypothesize here. Say Capcom did let MLG and IPL run their games for tournaments. That they do whatever they have to to get it. And say MLG and IPL want to put the massive effort in to market the games and make sponsors attracted to it (because we all know the rather shady history of FGs in eSports). They say 'hell with this so called Fighting Game Community crap', and go right over the heads of all these grassroots organizations. Do you really think there's going to be a contest? Like EVO stands a chance statistically? Suddenly, the opportunity for many players to get high level exposure with these organizations and step up to a new level of being a professional opens. And if, hypothetically, players in the FGC refuse to attend out of some misguided sense of pride, all the better. Cull the competition. Suddenly my chances for exposure increase. Play at MLG, do well, laugh your ass off all the way to the bank. Sounds pretty sweet.

I've been around a for a minute now. I'm soon to be 22 years old. I started getting into competitive gaming when I was fourteen. Almost eight years. Not too bad, eh? I've seen all kinds of stuff. I've experienced what the FGC is like. The Three Stooges, as Jerry so aptly put it, are speaking about a vocal minority in the FGC. All these aspects of that community that make it 'unique' are perpetrated by a bunch of loudmouth assholes. Yea, I said it. Fight me. And gods damn, I have no idea why these men are stepping to the defense of all this negative BS. Things that made me hesitant about committing to being a part of the FGC. That I felt would ruin the experience of being a competitive player. I'm sure there a people who feel the same. People who love playing these games, honing and testing their skills, but have to deal with such nonsense. They bite the bullet and deal because they want to do what they enjoy. But defending that behavior? It's a misbegotten sense of identity. And partly schadenfreude. Like that one guy who's sort of your friend but really not because he's a jerk, but it's fun to watch the spectacle. And for some reason people accept it as the face of the community. I don't get it. At all. It's so backasswards I'll probably talk myself in circles for hours about it.

I'm not trying to discredit the things that the FGC does. EVO has done much good for growing the community. SRK, TeamSpooky, SoCal regionals, the LevelUp series, etc. But they're little steps, moving towards a higher goal slowly. Gotta run before you can walk, sure. But it's like "here, I want to hand you the keys to a brand new Ducati" and you're gonna throw it in their face. It just doesn't make sense. Instead of trying to foster a beneficial relationship, there's this sudden concentrated effort to alienate everyone. "You don't get it, you never will, piss off with your corporate bullshit." Touting the things that make the FGC unique, that I personally never found any reason to identify with. Cutting off your nose to spite your face, in other words. It's like high school level drama. Grow the fuck up, please.

It's just terribly depressing to me because I've always loved to play fighting games, especially at a competitive level. Fighting games and the community around it have a great culture that values the skill of an individual and the ability to test it against any opponent in fair combat, but don't let that be ruined by a bunch of arrogant children. Please. Yes, I understand all about the culture of one on one contests. Testing martial skill. Hell, I doubt there are many people in the FGC who can tell me anything about it. I dedicated myself to wrestling for about a decade of my life. I've been to too many tournaments to count. From local to regional and national level. I've been coached by Olympic level wrestlers since I was a kid. Was I, personally, ever great? No. If anything I was probably 'above average'. But that was a choice I made. I stopped at a certain point, because my time was done. Anyways, I digress. It was a combat sport, with no legitimate professional level that allows you to make a living off of it. I did it purely because I loved doing it, and it was a great thing to be a part of. Not because I was chasing an opportunity. And that brings me to an important point, probably the only real important one I have.

These professional organizations, who people claim 'just don't get it', actually do. Probably better than you do. They've been down the long road. They understand developing a community and developing a top tier professional environment for the community. And that's why they don't just step over you and create a lucrative opportunity that will bleed you dry. That's why they want to foster a relationship by having discussions like this, about what you bring to the table and what they bring to the table. They want to bring everyone up to the top level, not crush anyone underfoot. Because believe me, if that was the objective none of this would be happening right now.

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Hi Jerrith, I'm the guy who uploaded that snippet (which by the way, included a good 5 minutes of context to what you and spooky said, I only have so much harddrive space man.) of the sp00ky interview on youtube. I really don't know why you would accuse me of conveinent edits to besmurch your good name, what you've been saying has done that well enough my friend.

I uploaded the rest of the interview as a show of good faith. I start right where we left off with the first vid.

I wouldn't call me "fans of sp00ky", I respect sp00ky and support him as a community member. I watched him go from streaming tinshi eat KFC double downs in his basement and have to go back to KFC becuase he forgot to turn the sound on, to watching him make Final round 14 the biggest non-EVO event and then even stream EVO 2011. I even have one of the original team sp00ky shirts with Shiki from melty blood on the back of the shirt that I bought from him at EVO '10 in a hotel room when we were running melty blood casuals. I'm one guy, don't use me to paint all of the streammonsters in the world.

There were 3000 entrants at EVO 2011, but nobody seems to be worrying about the 1000 of those people that did not enter Street Fighter. On the front of my Team Spooky shirt there is a slogan "Kings of Poverty", what this means is that the members of Team Spooky do more than play and cast streetfighter and the other major games of our scene. Sp00ky's main game is Melty Blood: Actress Again, a game you've probably never even seen even though it's a relatively big game and was even at EVO2010 after winning the Player's choice vote because all the players mobilized to get our game out there. Inkblot himself came on stage and commended us on making it happen, saying that he never thought that we'd actually pull it off when he put melty blood in the vote.

We know that at MLG and IPL they only want one, maybe two games (SF4 and Marvel), Games like Tekken, Guilty Gear, Melty Blood, Arcana Heart etc. aren't even going to be part of the discussion; there's nowhere near enough money to be made to justify running them. I understand the business aspects of that well enough. Yet (barring EVO which costs a lot of money to run and has too many time and cost factors to think about) our big events like Final Round and NEC continue to run big tournaments for these games, do you know why?

It's never been about the money, for the big TO's in our community whether they have more money in their pocket at the end of the day or less has not been a primary concern, throwing the biggest events including the most members of the various games of the FGc as possible has always been the primary concern. If you really want to get the community on board you're going to have to throw out the traditional methods of "We're going to throw our own events and we're going to have lots of money, don't you love money?" and actually go to an event and see how we do things, and sit and have a talk with the TO's and the players and work something out. Because frankly, we've got our own events and saying that you can run an event for just one game and throw money at us isn't going to impress us enough to abbandon our collective 15+ years of culture and community.

Those of us who play smaller games have something very real to lose when the leagues start to compete with our homegrown events, if the leagues win out events for our games don't happen anymore and we get to relegate all our events to someguy's basement and watch our communities die out overnight. And before you go on about how you're not around to cut us out of the margin, I recall a number of the MLG tekken events were scheduled at the same time/ close to community tekken majors and how that hurt the tekken scene and affected attendance at both events. I also recall how there was supposed to be a Melty Blood Tournament at Devestation that got cancelled because the organizers wouldn't allow it.

So really, you just don't understand us at all as a community, and I don't understand what you want from us and exactly what you want to do with the community we've worked so hard to build. And until people sit down at a table and figure these things out we're not going to reach any sort of meaningful conclusion to the debacle.

If you'd like to have a meaningful discussion / yelling contest / FT5 Melty Blood Money match over the topic, feel free to hit me up at Final Round 15, which you should really go to anyways.

PS: The Triforce reference in the article title made laugh for a good 5 minutes straight, good shit.

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@Jerry, this blog is awesome, first off. Great points, also love the way you talked about your childhood growing up playing in arcades, and how you really do get it. I do have a huge problem with this statement made by David, probably the thing that made me the most surprised...

"Our new players have largely adopted the established culture and tend to fit the same demographic molds as their predecessors.”

1. What the fuck is that? Is he trying to say that there are no real individuals in that community, old or new? I want to see the players that support this statement in this community, every single one. If you're reading this, and you're apart of that community and you have that mindset, I feel really sorry for you. You have been essentially stunted of your own growth by your own "leaders" and "experienced" players. In this mans eyes, you're not an individual. You're a clone of the greats before you. If you cannot make your own minds up about what you want, instead of your predecessors, thats sad.

2. Who is he to say that every or most of each new player of the fighting community support that idea. An established culture does not mean you can't expand. You can be apart of bigger things than yourself and still hold your "culture", the majority needs to speak up.

3. "Tend to fit the same demographic molds as their predeccesors." I would never want to be apart of a community that is described in that way. I don't want to fit a mold, I don't want to be a mold, a hermit, if you will, in my own community. You can keep your "roots" while expanding your own culture and try to get your best players in the best position possible for the amount of time they put in. No one is trying to change them, and they don't understand that. Don't flatter yourselves. You're a unique community, but nobody needs your self-righteous-this is what we deserve-bullshit.

In the end, their pro players will not get what they deserve for the time they put in. Period. In the end, all in all, I feel they can keep their little bubble worlds, where no one can touch their special little games and special little people. Until the majority of the fighter-game communities speak up, instead of these goons that "represent" them at the moment, there will be no progress.

Great post Jerry.

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I think you hit it on the head with this one Jerry.

I enjoy MLG because it's such a huge crossbreed of games, events, and people. If it hadn't been for SSBB at MLG last year, I would never have even known of the larger FGC as a whole because of the way we do things here in vVv. It's proven that the exposure of MLG and other leagues can help bigtime - but if they don't want me around as a fan and they don't want to be open to new ideas, then so be it. I don't have enough time for them anyway.

That being said, if there is proof that leagues running fighting games have not helped the community the way most would like, then why isn't this fight focused more on how to prevent that in the future; instead of protecting this weird, insular, community that it seems so many are willing to keep that way?

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@vVv DyeHard I'm not quite sure why you need the games to be in MLG for you to be a fan of it. There's tons of outlets to explore for yourself and see if you like it.

As far as this thread and this whole discussion goes, I'm not entirely sure what any of your points are trying to get at, aside being insulting of course. In neither UltraDavid's or Inkblots articles does it say we can never work under no circumstances or that they are explicably against the whole idea entirely. I can't understand people who think the leagues(not MLG) are the ones who get it and will know how to handle our games/community. They don't because they are outsiders. They can, if everyone talks with each other but for some reason the thing to do is talk shit to each other(this thread). Rather than Jerith(or is it Jerry i don't know) take a step back and talk to people within the fgc(not leaders as he so calls them, especially ultradavid who is simply a commentator, he does not dictate anything, nor does anyone else) and get something going. I don't know who but someone on the podcast was very fond of Final Round, which is great because it's a wonderful tournament run by a dedicated individual for coming on 15 years with outlook of personal gain. Those are the events our community loves and support, why doesn't MLG(the only viable "league" worth picking up fighting games imo since the others just seem to be invitationals of top players and massive rabid fans, which is cool, but not the point of being in the fgc) try and support it? That tournament has gotten by 15 years without sponsorship and isn't making any plans on stopping. Some support is well earned imo.

The community is the way it is and some will take to it, and some won't, same way some people take to certain games and genres. The one main thing that does bother me is in this whole argument just seems to be about money and how much the top players can earn. I'll tell you no one but those top players and their managers give a dam how much they could personally make and if they no longer have to work a 9 to 5. They aren't the fighting game community, they are a part of it. SC2 community is mostly filled with spectators, ours is not so the approach has to be different. That's why MLG is the perfect place for our games to be in a "big time league". They understand that, other leagues I don't quite believe so until proven otherwise.

Honestly rather than bickering why not just work together or at least attempt. Misrepresenting Ultradavid's article so grossly then proceeding to insult the community is simply not the way. No one is saying we can't work, we'd just rather you try not to tell us how it's done and we figure it out together.

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TBM hit on the thing that bothers me most, how Ultra David's article was misrepresented on the podcast.

You guys can downplay the culture thing and say it's insignificant, we're all people playing games blah blah more money benefits everyone blah.

check this interview with Ultra David:

Notice how the girl doing the interview (who I assume is on the Starcraft esports side of things) said that going to Canada Cup was a "huge culture shock".

Personally I think David's article was on fucking point, and if you want to know why there's a gap between the scenes then you should reread it. If you still can't see why there's a gap then people should agree to disagree, and stop throwing insults around.

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Agreed, the real convincing will come down to Capcom, WB Games, Bandai-Namco, etc. to work out something with MLG, WCG, Dreamhack, etc. for fighting games to get into eSports. The Support of the FGC would help, but if say WB works a deal with MLG and in turn MLG can offer $15,000 tournaments at their events, than people will attend no matter how much complaining SRK does.

Holy shit... First off, using force isn't the way to go about things. All you're doing is confirming the fears of the FGC and alienating them even further. Secondly, the FGC doesn't do closed-bracket tournaments, so invitationals don't mesh at all. Invitationals separate the top players from the rest of the crowd (AKA the community). Lastly, the current esports model creates a lot of spectators as opposed to actual players. The majority of the FGC doesn't like this kind of model.

If it hadn't been for SSBB at MLG last year, I would never have even known of the larger FGC as a whole because of the way we do things here in vVv.

I know this could cause a shit storm, but the Smash Community isn't really considered part of the FGC... Don't take this the wrong way, because I enjoy smash bros.

Edited by hotbreakfest

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The only issue I take with all this and it came through when I was listening to spooky, which I wish they would have actually left the ENTIRE conversation, was this seemingly omnipotent latitude LordJerith had on the show. I was with a lot of the stuff you were saying till you uttered the words "In the adult world..." As an atheist, follow me here, I was this way towards people of faith and for the most part I still am but I saw a video of Neil deGrasse Tyson rebuking Richard Dawkins on his method of dispensing atheism and the same type of thing goes here.

The general idea is that the FGC can benefit from being part of leagues like MLG and the others, and I AGREE 100% with that idea. The problem lies in the fear of someone stepping into the situation where it's like "Ok what you did was cute, BUT this is how WE do things. So, play ball or beat it". I have yet to see 1 oz. of understanding on the side of eSports companies trying to understand the demographic of the FGC, rather we are called misogynistic(true), Immature, stupid, and some extremes not worth the time. Telling people to grow isn't going to garner support from the ones you want; we do things our own way maybe not be the best but we do. I'm 36, and the last thing I need a person who is merely 5 years older than me to explain to me how "The adult world.." works. That is bad business. That's what makes or breaks ANY sale. Period.

You have to have information + sensitivity to a mind set and that itself has a greater impact. Not babying, but if someone is terrified of dogs, you don't lock them in a room with a pitbull 1st and say "There, now get over that fear" There is bad blood between MLG and the FGC, what have they (eSports) done to rectify it? They are the supposed "smarter ones" to deal with this type of situation. You are telling me that people like yourself can't break it down to explain to people how this can benefit professionals and organizers alike aside from just chanting "MORE MONEY! MORE MONEY!"? Not to mention the economics of it all, the average competitive player does NOT make a real good living at this. What you did was call out Tom Cannon talking about how he has nothing but his self interest when he helped out Team Spooky with all new equipment. Almost 10 years of love has been put in and disrespect tom as if he hasn't done a lot for the community. Spooky has no stake it in, he teamed up with IPlaywinner.com and I was surprised this came from a competing site, so for him to say "shove it up your ass" in any context was a reasonable reaction. Spooky flew out to Bar Fights for 1 night out his own pocket just to fly back the next day for the FGC to present to us a quality stream and you are saying "Well these companies are gonna come in and make it better" and I think it's completely fair for the people in charge to say:

"How?"

Seemingly from your stand point it seems as if it's wrong for those who are prominent in the community to even ask why.

From personal experience I was involved in the Rollerblading (xgames kind of stuff) industry for just about 10 years, and saw this type of behavior from that industry of wanting to stay underground but in all reality staying underground means no one knows you who are, as well as the companies you hold so dear and near and NO industry can survive like that. At the same time people who ran stuff like Xgames looked down at us and screwed us every which way at any opportunity. From Prize pools, to TV coverage, ASR (trade show) floor space, even outright stealing our ideas without so much as saying "thanks for the idea". I see the same start up with the FGC and people are weary, and businesses historically have never had the best interest a community, and that's the re-assurance these competitive leagues need to remember to give to ANY community not just the FGC. People hate Walmart becuase they run out mom and pop shops, so people don't want to see mom and pop shops (Like Spooky, Finest KO, IPW, Level|Up) just vanish. But to continue to think that we absolutely NEED them to survive? No we don't. Evo is gonna celebrate 10 years of operation with next year's event. Treat those who run shit as equals, not like children, then maybe you'd get a more receptive audience.

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And to be honest, I was that dude that took your lunch money, your bike, and after you got your car made you ride me around, but again just being honest.

I saw your profile and I see that you are dating one of the boys from vvv gaming that is significantly younger than you are, 15+ yrs?? Again this leads me to ask questions about the true motives behind vvv gaming, as I cannot see at all where this company can even afford to send players around the country, let alone turn any kind of profit.

Forgive me if I am asking alot of really pointed questions but this is what is on my mind right now as an adult you tend to be slightly suspicious when things do not look kosher. I am trying to figure out exactly what the role of vvv gaming is? Please forgive me if I have asked some really tough questions but again before I can permit my son to be part of this I really would like to understand what he is getting into.

Thanks

Dave Henchman

First off, mister concerned parent, you're now taking this to the personal level. You started off by saying: "I was that dude that took your lunch money, your bike, and after you got your car made you ride me around, but again just being honest."

Do you expect ANYBODY to take you seriously when you make a remark like that?

And then, after that, you bring his relationship into this. What on earth does him being in a relationship have ANYTHING to do with him running vVv Gaming? I'll personally tell you, right now, that Jerry is a VERY well respected man in MANY communities, and is not this "suspicious" adult you think he is. He addressed the topic of the FGC, and you went off the road and started questioning him about what vVv Gaming is about and what his motives are.

My advice to you: either get educated on the subject at hand and start conversing about it, or hit the high road and stop with your illiterate bullshit trying to question Jerry about his motives just because he addressed a very serious topic at hand and it made you "suspicious", because you're causing unnecessary drama like a high school girl, and it needs to stop. And saying "forgive me, no offense, etc." many times clearly means you ARE being an arrogant ass.

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First off, mister concerned parent, you're now taking this to the personal level. You started off by saying: "I was that dude that took your lunch money, your bike, and after you got your car made you ride me around, but again just being honest."

Do you expect ANYBODY to take you seriously when you make a remark like that?

And then, after that, you bring his relationship into this. What on earth does him being in a relationship have ANYTHING to do with him running vVv Gaming? I'll personally tell you, right now, that Jerry is a VERY well respected man in MANY communities, and is not this "suspicious" adult you think he is. He addressed the topic of the FGC, and you went off the road and started questioning him about what vVv Gaming is about and what his motives are.

My advice to you: either get educated on the subject at hand and start conversing about it, or hit the high road and stop with your illiterate bullshit trying to question Jerry about his motives just because he addressed a very serious topic at hand and it made you "suspicious", because you're causing unnecessary drama like a high school girl, and it needs to stop. And saying "forgive me, no offense, etc." many times clearly means you ARE being an arrogant ass.

Why would he take this seriously? This thread reeks of trollbait, and you aren't helping.

Why do you guys suddenly care about the FGC? Nobody really gave a shit about the FGC for well over 15 years, and then all of a sudden you guys are extremely interested. That alone can make me question your motives. Ponder (AKA Tony) has lost money over the last 10 years by running EVO. The only person ranting about raking in the dough right now is Jerry. Many of us are wiling to give "eSports" a chance, but not by you guys forcing it on us.

Also, Coren brought up an extremely important point. Popular, yet more obscure, games within the community essentially get the shaft, when our "mom and pop" tournies have to compete with the "big leagues". Are you guys just going to give the other 500-1000 players the finger, and say "tough luck fellas :D"?

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