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#41 Empire

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 12:33 PM

Wow, if the leagues partner with jaxel (donate) then we really (donate) are screwed (become a premium member!) and it'll all pretty much a giant joke (Disable adblocker) to the community at large (donate).

I wonder how long until Jaxel decides "MLG is too elitist!" and opens up Astral League while copying all their info without asking permission or giving credit.

(for those who don't know Jaxel's streams and websites are fucking plastered with ads, begs for donations, and requests that people become premium members. He also Started a website called Astral Heat because 'Dustloop.com is too elitist and unwelcoming of new players' and then copied all the info from their guides and posted it on his site without credit or permission.)

If Jaxel is coming out of the woodwork you know that he's smelt the money and wants a piece


This doesn't really make anyone look bad besides yourself.

Stop acting like a spoiled teenager. Dustloop is a shitty community. And the information was put out there for anyone to use as they please. Unless the folks who put the guides up at DL want to copyright their info and claim it, there's no problem. He's disseminating the information to a larger audience. But he already addressed the issue of 'copying guides' as you claim.



The difference here is that we'll still be around during and after something like this happens. Did everyone forget about Starcraft in Korea? That started up because the grassroots leagues made it hype, and then the community was approached by sponsors and built their own thing that worked. The FGC can use that model as opposed to the model offered by MLG or major 'leagues'.



They get it... according to how they expect things to run. We expect something different.

Tossing aside all these ideas of "differences" and different demographics, I still don't understand why both communities can't come together and work something out that is good for both sides. Let's be honest: what the FGC really, REALLY values is the Open Tournament feeling. We understand that you want to cap tournaments because too many entrants can get crazy, but EVO solved that problem by forcing pre-registration and pre-creating bracket assignments and pools. Logistically they've solved a huge number of problems and they learn and develop clever new ways to overcome the difficulties inherently involved with hosting a huge open tournament. A lot of people feel that going the MLG route of limited tournaments and "leagues" would prevent that open feel.

And, well, how else do you find more excellent players? We want to be able to walk into any tournament and see how we measure up. We want to see the effects of our practice and see our improvement. How would MLG let us do that?


since you clearly didn't bother to actually read the rest of what I wrote, I won't bother responding to any great length.

And what the fuck is 'according to how they expect things to run.' Honestly? I feel like you are just making shit up now.

Like I said, they don't need your permission. The fact that this discussion exists and that the FGC keeps digging itself into it's little hole is enough for me personally to say, "ok hell with that, then." This is where you make a case for why you should get corporate sponsors, and actually step up from the grassroots level. Not do the complete opposite. Holy grilled cheesus, fam.

And it's quite clear that you have no idea how MLG runs it's tournament brackets, since you keep talking about closed vs open bracket.

Edited by vVv Empire, 19 December 2011 - 12:35 PM.


#42 hotbreakfest

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 01:11 PM

since you clearly didn't bother to actually read the rest of what I wrote, I won't bother responding to any great length.

And what the fuck is 'according to how they expect things to run.' Honestly? I feel like you are just making shit up now.

Like I said, they don't need your permission. The fact that this discussion exists and that the FGC keeps digging itself into it's little hole is enough for me personally to say, "ok hell with that, then." This is where you make a case for why you should get corporate sponsors, and actually step up from the grassroots level. Not do the complete opposite. Holy grilled cheesus, fam.

And it's quite clear that you have no idea how MLG runs it's tournament brackets, since you keep talking about closed vs open bracket.

We like the grassroots feel that our tournaments provide, so quit shoving your "esports" down our throats. 256 players is the cap for MLG's open brackets. Tournaments like EVO don't have a player cap for it's brackets, and that's a huge difference.

#43 vVv LordJerith

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 02:32 PM

I wonder why the FGC doesn't want to see the top players make as much money as possible? Does it feel to anyone else they are holding back the financial success of their top players?
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#44 vVv Blazek

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 03:11 PM

Here's the problem im starting to see more and more. A good size of the players of the FGC say they are willing to work with the major leagues, sit down and talk with them, and work out how they would like to see it done. MLG Sundance said he would like that, but he has never been apporached by the FGC.

...Soo whats the hold up?

If people within the FGC will not work with the leagues then they are just gonna do it the way they see fit, and that is not what FGC wants aparently. Either be proactive and help make fighting games popular with keeping your "culture" or the eSports leagues will sign deals with the developers and completly override what you want; and they will likely win as they can offer better prize pools.

Or ofcourse eSports may not want the Fighting Game Community and you will continue at the pace you have been. That's fine by me it's your choice, but it's sad that you would want your best players to rely on a normal job just to make it to tournaments where they will likely net a loss in money spent vs money gained.

Edited by vVv Blazek, 19 December 2011 - 03:12 PM.


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#45 nothingxs

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 03:18 PM

since you clearly didn't bother to actually read the rest of what I wrote, I won't bother responding to any great length.

I did, I just replied to what I actually had comments on; apparently I should've clarified that from the start.

And what the fuck is 'according to how they expect things to run.' Honestly? I feel like you are just making shit up now.

As in, you get what works for you. What's good for the goose, unsurprisingly, isn't always good for the gander. Or it might make more sense to say that we're birds of a different feather, but then everyone gets mad when we try to show that the FGC and eSports communities are different, so I'm trying to avoid that. Also, clichés!

Like I said, they don't need your permission. The fact that this discussion exists and that the FGC keeps digging itself into it's little hole is enough for me personally to say, "ok hell with that, then." This is where you make a case for why you should get corporate sponsors, and actually step up from the grassroots level. Not do the complete opposite. Holy grilled cheesus, fam.

Uh, okay...? You didn't make any sense here.

And it's quite clear that you have no idea how MLG runs it's tournament brackets, since you keep talking about closed vs open bracket.

MLG has caps for their tournaments, last I checked.



I wonder why the FGC doesn't want to see the top players make as much money as possible? Does it feel to anyone else they are holding back the financial success of their top players?

What makes you say that? I have no problem whatsoever with the top players making all the money they possible can. In fact, we tend to congratulate any players that officially go pro. We are pro-making money. There's nothing wrong with people making money with what they love. This is the common ground we both share and we should use as the basis for the interests of everyone: we both want to see the best players make that cash. The FGC would argue that they want that without losing what makes the FGC special to its members (and you can make jokes about teenage girls and unique and special butterflies all you want). Most are afraid (with good reason, whether you agree or not is another story) that MLGs intervention will damage it and violently change the way things are run and ultimately harm what's already in place, even though what's already in place is good, hype and enjoyed by the community at large (and even outsiders).

Here's the problem im starting to see more and more. A good size of the players of the FGC say they are willing to work with the major leagues, sit down and talk with them, and work out how they would like to see it done. MLG Sundance said he would like that, but he has never been apporached by the FGC.

...Soo whats the hold up?

If people within the FGC will not work with the leagues then they are just gonna do it the way they see fit, and that is not what FGC wants aparently. Either be proactive and help make fighting games popular with keeping your "culture" or the eSports leagues will sign deals with the developers and completly override what you want; and they will likely win as they can offer better prize pools.

Or ofcourse eSports may not want the Fighting Game Community and you will continue at the pace you have been. That's fine by me it's your choice, but it's sad that you would want your best players to rely on a normal job just to make it to tournaments where they will likely net a loss in money spent vs money gained.


A big reason why you see a lot of posturing from the FGC is simply because the FGC is fairly comfortable in its relative success. While you may not see it as a success, the fact that there is a fighting game boom, many people are playing and EVO and other tournaments continue to break their previous attendance records for the past couple of years since 2009 rolled through means that they are more than content to let the "right deal" come to them rather than them having to be thoroughly proactive about things.

Many people on the eSports side already make the allusion that CAPCOM isn't exactly willing to talk to people like MLG as it is. A good part of that may be that they see what their fans want and put their interests ahead of those of their very top players, and it feels like most people are content with what they have now (EVO Tournament Season, monthly grassroots majors, WNF / level|up, etc)...

Again, it's perplexing that the accusation is thrown around that the FGC does not want its players to get paid. Of course we want our players to get paid! Hell, many members of the FGC would love something like the Starcraft leagues to spring up because it'd mean money for everyone in the long term. But when we think Starcraft leagues, we're not thinking the American ones. We're looking at a model like Korea's, which was built from the ground up...

Long story short, it almost feels like (and this is conjecture, because I don't actually know) the developers side mainly on the side of the FGC because it has a longer history of success in its areas, and outsiders would love to come in and spread money around. Hell, it comes down to things like approach. When I read the post by Empire, do you think I feel interested in ANY league coming into what I've been a part of for years? Hell no. A post like "Do you really think there's going to be a contest? Like EVO stands a chance statistically?" doesn't make me go, "oh, man, I guess you're right, we better adopt the leagues," it makes me go "YOU WILL NEVER TAKE OUR FREEDOM."

Edited by nothingxs, 19 December 2011 - 03:26 PM.


#46 Jaxel

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 03:20 PM

We like the grassroots feel that our tournaments provide, so quit shoving your "esports" down our throats. 256 players is the cap for MLG's open brackets. Tournaments like EVO don't have a player cap for it's brackets, and that's a huge difference.


Again, you're focusing on the wrong things and missing the entire point. You're saying that MLG has restrictions on tournament sizes; I get that, 256 players are their max. But the point I made that you're also missing is that events like EVO and NEC are not going away! The community can't be mutually exclusive to one specific league... which was the ENTIRE purpose of the article I wrote on 8wayrun.

Right now we are exclusive to the EVO league, and are at their whim. The point is CHOICE, in order to expand our game and bring in more capital for our top players. You'll still have EVO, you'll still have your majors with open brackets, money matches, challenges and side tournaments... There will still be BYOC areas. Why hinder growth because you're afraid of what might happen? Not to mention, when we talk about eSports, we're not talking about MLG specifically! There are other leagues!

Edited by Jaxel, 19 December 2011 - 03:21 PM.


#47 nothingxs

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 03:30 PM

Why hinder growth because you're afraid of what might happen? Not to mention, when we talk about eSports, we're not talking about MLG specifically! There are other leagues!

I think most people would rather have it so that whatever the major league that develops that stands behind fighting games actually has sustainability, longevity and the interests of its players and the community first and foremost on its mind.

Also, there's no "EVO league" since Evolution is an open tournament already. As it is, MLG could technically broker a deal with CAPCOM and be allowed to run events just fine, and EVO would still exist just fine. The issue here seems to be vying for players...

#48 vVv LordJerith

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 03:41 PM

"Most are afraid (with good reason, whether you agree or not is another story) that MLGs intervention will damage it and violently change the way things are run and ultimately harm what's already in place. . ."

LoL .. seriosuly?! Come on now . . . how can I respond to that? Damage, violently change, harm? really? lol
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#49 vVv Blazek

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 03:48 PM

A big reason why you see a lot of posturing from the FGC is simply because the FGC is fairly comfortable in its relative success. While you may not see it as a success, the fact that there is a fighting game boom, many people are playing and EVO and other tournaments continue to break their previous attendance records for the past couple of years since 2009 rolled through means that they are more than content to let the "right deal" come to them rather than them having to be thoroughly proactive about things.

Many people on the eSports side already make the allusion that CAPCOM isn't exactly willing to talk to people like MLG as it is. A good part of that may be that they see what their fans want and put their interests ahead of those of their very top players, and it feels like most people are content with what they have now (EVO Tournament Season, monthly grassroots majors, WNF / level|up, etc)...

Again, it's perplexing that the accusation is thrown around that the FGC does not want its players to get paid. Of course we want our players to get paid! Hell, many members of the FGC would love something like the Starcraft leagues to spring up because it'd mean money for everyone in the long term. But when we think Starcraft leagues, we're not thinking the American ones. We're looking at a model like Korea's, which was built from the ground up...

Long story short, it almost feels like (and this is conjecture, because I don't actually know) the developers side mainly on the side of the FGC because it has a longer history of success in its areas, and outsiders would love to come in and spread money around. Hell, it comes down to things like approach. When I read the post by Empire, do you think I feel interested in ANY league coming into what I've been a part of for years? Hell no. A post like "Do you really think there's going to be a contest? Like EVO stands a chance statistically?" doesn't make me go, "oh, man, I guess you're right, we better adopt the leagues," it makes me go "YOU WILL NEVER TAKE OUR FREEDOM."


It's great the FGC has seen success in recent years, just as it is great that eSports blew up within the last few years. And while you may be comfortable with the pace you are going here is the issue that is likely to explode in your face.

When eSports make deals with with developers (which MLG is in that process) then they will be able to create big tournaments for fighting games. So what happens when an MLG event lands on the same weekend as EVO? (just like it did this year with MLG Anaheim) well players will have to make a choice where to go, and it will split the community. THAT is why i say be proactive and talk with the leagues. If the FGC doesn't then the top players will go to where the money is. This isn't a statement to say "deal with it, the leagues will win" I'm saying you are in danger of losing what you have worked 15 years to create, and only by working to transform your model into a league setting may do that. By working with eSports leagues you can also guarantee tournaments won't fall on same weekends and possibly even get funding for other tournaments.


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#50 nothingxs

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 03:49 PM

"Most are afraid (with good reason, whether you agree or not is another story) that MLGs intervention will damage it and violently change the way things are run and ultimately harm what's already in place. . ."

LoL .. seriosuly?! Come on now . . . how can I respond to that? Damage, violently change, harm? really? lol


You usually start by actually attempting to address people's concerns instead of making light of them, which only serves to make people more uneasy and distrusting of your stance. Whether you feel they are actually legitimate or not, not addressing them in some way outside of amused dismissal is a clear sign that you're not actually attempting to engage the community at any level outside of "fuck them" -- a bad stance to take considering you are essentially trying to win them over.



When eSports make deals with with developers (which MLG is in that process) then they will be able to create big tournaments for fighting games. So what happens when an MLG event lands on the same weekend as EVO? (just like it did this year with MLG Anaheim) well players will have to make a choice where to go, and it will split the community. THAT is why i say be proactive and talk with the leagues. If the FGC doesn't then the top players will go to where the money is. This isn't a statement to say "deal with it, the leagues will win" I'm saying you are in danger of losing what you have worked 15 years to create, and only by working to transform your model into a league setting may do that. By working with eSports leagues you can also guarantee tournaments won't fall on same weekends and possibly even get funding for other tournaments.


In your scenario, even if the events were simply one week apart, most people would have to make a decision on where to go.

Most people don't feel that a "league" is the right way to monetize the FGC. Why does it have to be a league format? Will MLG support the open tournaments as well? If MLG tournaments are going to pay so much better than the open tournaments like Evolution, then why would we even continue to have that tournament once MLG sets up a league system? What of all the players who rely on open tournaments to gain notoriety?

Edited by nothingxs, 19 December 2011 - 03:54 PM.


#51 hotbreakfest

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 07:17 PM

I wonder why the FGC doesn't want to see the top players make as much money as possible? Does it feel to anyone else they are holding back the financial success of their top players?

Jerith, we all want to see our top players make more money, but look at it this way. Do 20 top players and a bunch of dickriders spectators make a community? That is essentially the esports model. You have the top players in their little rooms located far away from the crowd of rabid fans, that probably don't even play the fucking game. Sorry, but we don't like this.

"Most are afraid (with good reason, whether you agree or not is another story) that MLGs intervention will damage it and violently change the way things are run and ultimately harm what's already in place. . ."

LoL .. seriosuly?! Come on now . . . how can I respond to that? Damage, violently change, harm? really? lol

smh... Stay classy. :rolleyes:

Here's the problem im starting to see more and more. A good size of the players of the FGC say they are willing to work with the major leagues, sit down and talk with them, and work out how they would like to see it done. MLG Sundance said he would like that, but he has never been apporached by the FGC.

...Soo whats the hold up?

We never cared until you guys showed up trying to break down our front door. MLG wanted FGs, but FGC never really cared about MLG. Don't try to fix something that isn't broken.

When eSports make deals with with developers (which MLG is in that process) then they will be able to create big tournaments for fighting games. So what happens when an MLG event lands on the same weekend as EVO? (just like it did this year with MLG Anaheim) well players will have to make a choice where to go, and it will split the community. THAT is why i say be proactive and talk with the leagues. If the FGC doesn't then the top players will go to where the money is. This isn't a statement to say "deal with it, the leagues will win" I'm saying you are in danger of losing what you have worked 15 years to create, and only by working to transform your model into a league setting may do that. By working with eSports leagues you can also guarantee tournaments won't fall on same weekends and possibly even get funding for other tournaments.

THIS is what you should have said from the very beginning, instead of adding fuel to the fire.

Edited by hotbreakfest, 19 December 2011 - 07:36 PM.


#52 hotbreakfest

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 08:14 PM

In your scenario, even if the events were simply one week apart, most people would have to make a decision on where to go.

Most people don't feel that a "league" is the right way to monetize the FGC. Why does it have to be a league format? Will MLG support the open tournaments as well? If MLG tournaments are going to pay so much better than the open tournaments like Evolution, then why would we even continue to have that tournament once MLG sets up a league system? What of all the players who rely on open tournaments to gain notoriety?

Bingo.

Edited by hotbreakfest, 19 December 2011 - 08:15 PM.


#53 Empire

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 08:44 PM

Jerry makes fun of your ridiculous 'logic' for the same reason I can't be arsed to write another real response. You're acting like children. No matter how neat and pretty the argument is, you're still being stubborn and arrogant. Acting like a smartass teenager, in other words. I know all about it, since I was the same way. If you're going to sit there and not even give me the common courtesy of attempting to read and respond to my argument as a whole, instead picking and choosing what you like, then I'm gonna be the asshole and disregard your existence as a person worthy of equal conversation with me. Plain and simple. I don't have time for semantics. But that's just me.

Really I'm just gonna sit here and laugh, because you don't get it. This conversation could be easily closed. No one here has any need to care about what you say, yet here you are saying it. Because we encourage discussion. Engaging the community. Because this is a community, built from the ground up, as you like to put it. We want to hear what you have to say, but as far as I can see you haven't been saying anything. Every point brought up is met with a counter. But there is nothing behind it. No argument, just an empty statement. Why do you dislike the league format? Why do you think it won't work? What exactly differentiates the FGC from other games in eSports? Support your claims with tangible ideas and thought processes. So the problem, whatever it is, can be addressed. It can be broken down into nice little components, instead of being this big amorphous blob over everyone's head.




In your scenario, even if the events were simply one week apart, most people would have to make a decision on where to go.

Most people don't feel that a "league" is the right way to monetize the FGC. Why does it have to be a league format? Will MLG support the open tournaments as well? If MLG tournaments are going to pay so much better than the open tournaments like Evolution, then why would we even continue to have that tournament once MLG sets up a league system? What of all the players who rely on open tournaments to gain notoriety?


Saying a week apart was an example. Don't be a jerk.

And this second part. What? See this is the issue I'm talking about. You're taking in circles now. Semantics. You've said you're opposed how many times now? It doesn't have to be a league format. That's the point of talking to you about it, but you refuse to ADDRESS THE FUCKING ISSUE. Look, honestly, I don't think you all understand the mechanics behind the way MLG and the like operates, never mind the history of these organizations. Before you develop such vehement opposition based on shit you heard from some schmuck, research for yourself. In detail. Understand this system you claim to hate. This "I dislike X because" shit pisses me off to no end. Enumerate exactly what points in the way MLG functions as opposed to how the FGC tournaments are run that you think are not good for fighting games. Quantifiable facts. Data you can compare against. You know, shit that matters to an argument instead of some bullshit uninformed opinion like,

Jerith, we all want to see our top players make more money, but look at it this way. Do 20 top players and a bunch of dickriders spectators make a community? That is essentially the esports model. You have the top players in their little rooms located far away from the crowd of rabid fans, that probably don't even play the fucking game. Sorry, but we don't like this.


Grow up.

And don't speak for 'most people'. Speak for yourself. Guarantee you know fuck all about 'most people'.



I swear, this is like trying to talk to religious people. And I'm getting very annoyed. Time to take a break.

#54 Coren

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 08:53 PM

A major issuse seems to be that we have our own way of doing things which is based around inclusion (uncapped brackets, no spectator fee aside from the venue fee, running as many fighting games a possible, BYOC areas for casuals, side tournaments, bets etc.). And the leagues have their own business model which doesn't mesh extremely well (capped brackets, player's lounges, spectator fees, marketing players).

When we run a tournament for fighting games we generally have three basic concepts:

1) Anyone can enter and have a fair shot of winning
2) Include as many people as possible
3) Everyone is equal

These arent actually extremely good business decisions and placing your top players apart from the rabble and marketing them is actually a better business model, but we're uncomfortable with that idea. I mean, look at EVO 2010, no one even knew who gamerbee was till he knocked Justin out of top 8, now he's the best known Adon player in the world. And only people who scoured nicovideo for tournament footage from Japan knew about Fuudo, now he's the EVO champion. We like upsets like this, it tells us that we really are determining who the best are and not just 'who the best of these 36 players' are.

That said, I would love for all top 8 finishers to get something back for their hardwork besides pride, America is a big country and travelling from major to major is really expensive (I should know, I'm booking to fly from Vancouver to Atlanta for Final Round, which you should go to) and pride can't cover your expenses. Especially since a large number of our players are either students or working low-income jobs. I can see where leagues can help us with this sort of stuff, yes.

However I am a selfish 20 something, I'm not quite willing to sacrifice the needs of the many for the needs of the few. the inclusion of the default eSports model, as our community sees it, is really good for two groups of people (and I am intentionally being an asshole here):

1) The top players (fair enough)
2) Sellouts who will plunder from the community at large to make a quick buck (donate) without considering the rammifications to the community at large.

Looking back at the past to things like MLG Tekken where MLG events took place very close to Community events and the player pools became split due to people needing to decide whether they liked the additional money or the Community driven events with foreign talent flying in better. As a result MLG Tekken floundered and Tekken majors saw middling participantion since the competition was split in two and both suffered as a result. It's clear that if the leagues are going to enter the fighting game space again with streetfighter or marvel then collaberation is probably the way to go because it does two things:

1) Not split the playerbase.
2) Assure us that the leagues don't just want to run us out of town and then monetize on what is left.

There is honestly not enough room for all the majors we run and an additional League season of events, this is kind of a unique situation as we've been doing this for 15+ years as opposed to say LoL which didn't really have any tournaments of note until the inclusion of eSports. And say what you will about the power of throwing money at players to bring them to events; but we controll all the information on how to play the game at a high level, so there isn't a single competitive player who isn't at least tangentally involved in the scene, and we also convert the majority of new players so going to war isn't likely to end extremely well for either side. The Illuminati reach further and deeper than you think.

Again, I don't even know why people keep bringing this up as "FGC versus MLG" it's really "Streetfighter players versus eSports" there's more to eSports than MLG, and there are plenty of games not even being considered despite being infinitely less HURR DURR than SF4 and Marvel are on a competitive scope (Shoutouts to Melty Blood).

#55 Jaxel

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 08:55 PM

* posted on 8wayrun *

Okay... I'm going to give you guys a scenario, but first, lets try to agree on something: eSports leagues WILL have fighting games in them. This is an unavoidable fact. It's not something that we can control. Can we agree on this? Okay, we are greed.

Now, lets say we follow Tom Cannon's advice and reject all support from the eSports leagues. What happens? MLG runs the tournaments there way, with their rules, likely pissing a lot of people off. This leads two many different possible outcomes. The obvious one, being that eSports leagues say "fuck it" to fighting games, and everything returns back to how it is now.

However, there is another possibility which people are forgetting. Since the FGC is not working with eSports, we end up having EVO majors and MLG majors on the same weekend. People may not like the way MLG is run, but the prizes are bigger. Sooner or later top players have to make a choice and decide to go with MLG because of the bigger pots. EVO events get smaller and smaller, and the FGC's control of the situation diminishes because they aren't working with MLG to rectify any issues. We all lose.

Now, lets say instead of we against Tom Cannon's advice and try to work with eSports instead. Now we at least have some connection with them, and we can offer our advice and try to fix the many issues they've had in the past (although, who knows if they will listen; but I've heard their recent Tekken events have been run ever well). We can help to try to fix issues, as well as make sure events don't compete with each other. Worst case? eSports leagues say "fuck it" and everything returns back to how it is now. Best case? We all win.

Now, Tocool asked in the 8wayrun chat room yesterday, "Why do we even need eSports? We've been fine for 15 years without them. Why do people suddenly think we'll die without them?" (paraphrased; yes, I do read the chat room, even if I don't always talk) This is an excellent question, which I don't feel has been properly answered yet in all the discussions in the FGC. Well to put it simply, its because of "escalation".

Fighting games are getting bigger, and people's times are limited. The number of fighting games coming out are increasing, and the amount of money being thrown around at major events is skyrocketing. We've been seeing a growing trend that players tend to flock to the bigger events and leave the less profitable games behind. A lot of players I know play Marvel and/or Street Fighter right now because thats where the players are, and thats where the money is... it doesn't matter whether they like the game or not.

Now, as stated before, eSports WILL have fighting games. The games featured in eSports leagues will naturally have the larger community because of the amount of money involved. We see this in the MOBA community. League of Legends, while having a huge advantage due to it being free to play from the start, has the majority of the community. And as other games come out, or go free to player; whether or not they are better is irrelevant unless they have some major promished cash in tournaments such as DOTA2.

So why do we suddenly need eSports, when we never needed it before? Because of limited time. If Soulcalibur V doesn't have any eSports leagues behind it (and I do consider EVO an eSports league, even though its "unique" in it's own right), we'll quickly be hearing the same things after the first 6 months: "I like SC5, but I see no reason to spend my limited time playing it, instead of practicing these other games which actually have huge tournaments". And sooner or later that common sentement becomes a downward spiral which turns into: "I like SC5, but no one else plays it, so why bother?".

In the past, a $200 payout tournament, and a $400 payout tournament for a lot of players wasn't enough to convince them to give up the game they preferred for the higher profit. But because of escalation, the margin of difference in payouts between the less popular games and the crowd-pleasers have become so large that they can't be ignored. Stick with a smaller game with a $500 payout, or switch to the less fun game, and try for that $5,000 payout.

#56 TBM

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 09:36 PM

It's nice how you toss Tom Cannon under the bus by using a statement he has never said nor supports. I really don't get this whole vs bullshit people seem to keep bringing up. The only arguments I'm seeing are community vs money, which is quite a sad one. fgc is vs anyone, fgc is doing what it's doing and people are enjoying themselves all the same as SCR this past weekend continues to show and winter brawl in the coming year will continue to show. Also don't understand wanting to foster a community around how much money you could make like Jaxel here is suggesting with SC5. Why would you even remotely think that's a good idea. The only problem with esports in relation to the fgc is that esports(not mlg) caters to the top players/personalities and the fans, leaving everyone in the middle(the meat of the community) in the dust somewhere. If leagues can understand that and want to accommodate the fact that our community is different(different as in it consists of players not fans, people who go to events to play not make signs and rush for autographs and don't bother to play the fucking game) then there's nothing stopping them from approaching people like Tom Cannon for advice. Like Tom Cannon said they haven't done yet during his time in the podcast of this website. FGC is doing great, "esports" wants to join in the fun, it's up to them to make the effort and approach us.

So name calling between people(like the OP for example or this guy Empire who can't engage in a discussion apparently) really just hurts everyone. Just act like sensible adults and open talk to one another(IPL did it with jedirobb, see it's not so hard now is it). MLG can sure as hell do it too, and so on and so forth.

#57 Empire

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 10:14 PM

A major issuse seems to be that we have our own way of doing things which is based around inclusion (uncapped brackets, no spectator fee aside from the venue fee, running as many fighting games a possible, BYOC areas for casuals, side tournaments, bets etc.). And the leagues have their own business model which doesn't mesh extremely well (capped brackets, player's lounges, spectator fees, marketing players).

When we run a tournament for fighting games we generally have three basic concepts:

1) Anyone can enter and have a fair shot of winning
2) Include as many people as possible
3) Everyone is equal


The only one of these things that will change is the 'as many people as possible' part, if we say MLG or IPL pickup FG's. IPL is invite only, and MLG has a cap because of two reasons. One, logistics. Fitting the events into the venue. And that kind of ties into the second reason, time. MLG has usually run team games. Halo is/was their flagship title. 4 people per team. 15-30 mins per game. 3-5 games a set. Gears games would go longer, on average. It takes a while to get it all done. I've been to events where it's still going at 3 or 4 AM. Fighters are notably faster. The reason EVO can have as many entrants as it wants and still wrap in a weekend is speed of play. You can nail out many more games going for 12-14 hours. This is something MLG can easily accommodate for. In fact, they've consistently increased the number of games played per day over the years, particularly with the addition of pool play. So it can be safe to extrapolate that a 256 cap on the bracket is probably way too conservative an estimate. As far as charging spectators, making money off of that is one way to grow. Expand and enhance the experience for spectators. You need money. It's a fact. Trying to play it down and use passion as an excuse for poverty is silly. I'm not against paying to attend an event out of a twisted sense of entitlement. The gambling thing won't fly in a professional environment, but you won't lose that at tournaments that still operate as 'grass roots'.



These arent actually extremely good business decisions and placing your top players apart from the rabble and marketing them is actually a better business model, but we're uncomfortable with that idea. I mean, look at EVO 2010, no one even knew who gamerbee was till he knocked Justin out of top 8, now he's the best known Adon player in the world. And only people who scoured nicovideo for tournament footage from Japan knew about Fuudo, now he's the EVO champion. We like upsets like this, it tells us that we really are determining who the best are and not just 'who the best of these 36 players' are.

That said, I would love for all top 8 finishers to get something back for their hardwork besides pride, America is a big country and travelling from major to major is really expensive (I should know, I'm booking to fly from Vancouver to Atlanta for Final Round, which you should go to) and pride can't cover your expenses. Especially since a large number of our players are either students or working low-income jobs. I can see where leagues can help us with this sort of stuff, yes.


Again, I agree with having the ability to prove you can play at the top. And working with eSports won't change that. It's a fundamental part of what makes fighting games competitive in the first place. But you have to earn it. And you have to stay there to get attention. Consistency is important. The reason the top players get separated from the rabble is not a function of any outside influence to shrink the field. The top players earn their way there and stay there until they are knocked off. I don't see why it's a bad thing they get rewarded for the work they put in. I like that you used gamerbee as an example, though. Such a nice Adon haha.

And much as I love going to events for all kinds of games, from MLG /WCG level to locals, I'm fucking poor. Haven't been able to travel for a while. I haven't even been playing any games casually for at least the past year. Breaks me heart. anyways, moving on...



However I am a selfish 20 something, I'm not quite willing to sacrifice the needs of the many for the needs of the few. the inclusion of the default eSports model, as our community sees it, is really good for two groups of people (and I am intentionally being an asshole here):

1) The top players (fair enough)
2) Sellouts who will plunder from the community at large to make a quick buck (donate) without considering the rammifications to the community at large.

Looking back at the past to things like MLG Tekken where MLG events took place very close to Community events and the player pools became split due to people needing to decide whether they liked the additional money or the Community driven events with foreign talent flying in better. As a result MLG Tekken floundered and Tekken majors saw middling participantion since the competition was split in two and both suffered as a result. It's clear that if the leagues are going to enter the fighting game space again with streetfighter or marvel then collaberation is probably the way to go because it does two things:

1) Not split the playerbase.
2) Assure us that the leagues don't just want to run us out of town and then monetize on what is left.


As I said, if they wanted to run you out, it's possible. Not easily, but still. I don't really understand what you mean by sell outs? Or what ramifications you're referring to. It sounds like you have a specific event or series of events in mind.

That kind of thing won't matter if your community is strong enough. They flare up, flame out, and disappear. With Halo or Gears locals, if it was shitty and they didn't pay, you never went back. Simple. Because there were bigger fish to fry. And on a more consistent basis. With FG's it seems like people being jerks could have more of an impact because you are a small community with not that many large paying tournaments. So people are hungry all the time. And attendance at major's is huge because that's all there is out there.


There is honestly not enough room for all the majors we run and an additional League season of events, this is kind of a unique situation as we've been doing this for 15+ years as opposed to say LoL which didn't really have any tournaments of note until the inclusion of eSports. And say what you will about the power of throwing money at players to bring them to events; but we controll all the information on how to play the game at a high level, so there isn't a single competitive player who isn't at least tangentally involved in the scene, and we also convert the majority of new players so going to war isn't likely to end extremely well for either side. The Illuminati reach further and deeper than you think.

Again, I don't even know why people keep bringing this up as "FGC versus MLG" it's really "Streetfighter players versus eSports" there's more to eSports than MLG, and there are plenty of games not even being considered despite being infinitely less HURR DURR than SF4 and Marvel are on a competitive scope (Shoutouts to Melty Blood).


I understand you have the history. But I said before, it's been small steps over time. You've got a pretty good system, but if you can't adapt it to improve it, then you fucking scrap it. LoL didn't go the slow route. They got right into the jetstream. I had another thing to say here, but I forgot. Also I only kept saying MLG because it's my most familiar frame of reference. or something.

I should let this lie for now, cause I got this gods damned paper to do. Even I can only run two trains of logic at the same time for only so long. :D

so yea.

But one last thing, consistently bringing up the problems that exist within eSports solves nothing. Yes, the dichotomy between top players and mid level players. You see it, we are all painfully aware of it, cool. It's a problem that needs to be solved within the communities of the games that it's plaguing. It doesn't accomplish a damn thing to keep bringing it up. Instead of taking the stance of 'well I don't like that and I don't want to deal with you because of that', take it as a lesson. Or if you know better, find a solution to it. One that perhaps other communities could emulate. This is called handling shit like an adult. You now bring something of value to the table, even more than you did before.

#58 nothingxs

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 11:11 PM

The only one of these things that will change is the 'as many people as possible' part, if we say MLG or IPL pickup FG's. IPL is invite only, and MLG has a cap because of two reasons. One, logistics. Fitting the events into the venue. And that kind of ties into the second reason, time. MLG has usually run team games. Halo is/was their flagship title. 4 people per team. 15-30 mins per game. 3-5 games a set. Gears games would go longer, on average. It takes a while to get it all done. I've been to events where it's still going at 3 or 4 AM. Fighters are notably faster. The reason EVO can have as many entrants as it wants and still wrap in a weekend is speed of play. You can nail out many more games going for 12-14 hours. This is something MLG can easily accommodate for. In fact, they've consistently increased the number of games played per day over the years, particularly with the addition of pool play. So it can be safe to extrapolate that a 256 cap on the bracket is probably way too conservative an estimate. As far as charging spectators, making money off of that is one way to grow. Expand and enhance the experience for spectators. You need money. It's a fact. Trying to play it down and use passion as an excuse for poverty is silly. I'm not against paying to attend an event out of a twisted sense of entitlement. The gambling thing won't fly in a professional environment, but you won't lose that at tournaments that still operate as 'grass roots'.


All of this makes pretty good sense. This is also why I encourage talks between the leagues and EVO (contrary to any opinion you might have of the arguments I'm presenting here, I actually am interested in seeing the players paid and want to see the community thrive while it happens); talking about things and helping to foster and further communication will help, never hinder.

Again, I agree with having the ability to prove you can play at the top. And working with eSports won't change that. It's a fundamental part of what makes fighting games competitive in the first place. But you have to earn it. And you have to stay there to get attention. Consistency is important. The reason the top players get separated from the rabble is not a function of any outside influence to shrink the field. The top players earn their way there and stay there until they are knocked off. I don't see why it's a bad thing they get rewarded for the work they put in. I like that you used gamerbee as an example, though. Such a nice Adon haha.


Correct. A lot of players feel that the way they will prove they deserve to be at the top is through open tournaments. Maybe it's a thing that we expect major leagues to turn everything into some sort of ranking-based or sponsorship-based invitational, or somehow limit away the ability for everyone who wants to join to have that ability; a lot of it is ignorance in general with how other tournaments by the leagues are conducted, and a lot of it is experience with how other professional leagues -- not just eSports leagues -- work. We don't want to see a league where only the best "teams" play and is sustained only by those teams, for instance (as a hypothetical; I don't think any such thing exists thus far outside of professional sports, and if it does it works very well for them).

As I said, if they wanted to run you out, it's possible. Not easily, but still. I don't really understand what you mean by sell outs? Or what ramifications you're referring to. It sounds like you have a specific event or series of events in mind.

That kind of thing won't matter if your community is strong enough. They flare up, flame out, and disappear. With Halo or Gears locals, if it was shitty and they didn't pay, you never went back. Simple. Because there were bigger fish to fry. And on a more consistent basis. With FG's it seems like people being jerks could have more of an impact because you are a small community with not that many large paying tournaments. So people are hungry all the time. And attendance at major's is huge because that's all there is out there.


I think in general, the fighting game scene is defensive because they just don't want it to potentially happen to them. Even if it doesn't, the possibility that it might would linger on them the entire time. I don't think people can Honestly Handle That Shitâ„¢, if you know what I mean.

I understand you have the history. But I said before, it's been small steps over time. You've got a pretty good system, but if you can't adapt it to improve it, then you fucking scrap it. LoL didn't go the slow route. They got right into the jetstream. I had another thing to say here, but I forgot. Also I only kept saying MLG because it's my most familiar frame of reference. or something.


Out of curiosity, how popular do you expect LoL to continue to be and how involved do you expect the community to be if the leagues drop it as a competitive game?

But one last thing, consistently bringing up the problems that exist within eSports solves nothing. Yes, the dichotomy between top players and mid level players. You see it, we are all painfully aware of it, cool. It's a problem that needs to be solved within the communities of the games that it's plaguing. It doesn't accomplish a damn thing to keep bringing it up. Instead of taking the stance of 'well I don't like that and I don't want to deal with you because of that', take it as a lesson. Or if you know better, find a solution to it. One that perhaps other communities could emulate. This is called handling shit like an adult. You now bring something of value to the table, even more than you did before.


For the most part, my posts here are serving to try and show you the mindset and concerns of the common FGC member. I think you would get less irritated at any post I make if you remembered first and foremost that I want to see the players get paid, and I want the leagues and the FGC to actually talk about a potential future where this can all happen. Conversely, I want to make sure that any deal that happens actually works out for everyone involved, and having known how business deals in general go, I know that in business, each side primarily looks out for themselves first and foremost. If you don't believe me, look at any labor dispute in any major professional sports league to see what I mean.

Am I saying eSports are inherently evil and that they want to eat my children? Fuck no. But I know eSports wants what they perceive is best for eSports. That makes perfect sense, and attacking you for it makes no sense. Conversely, we're trying to look out for the FGC. And instead of trying to be reassured with "nothing is wrong" statements, I prefer posts like this one where we actively address situations and issues as they pop up. That's why I really appreciated when Adam posted about EVO 2005 in that thread on SRK, because it was a good way to bring things up and attempt to be honest and straightforward with the community.

Edited by nothingxs, 19 December 2011 - 11:14 PM.


#59 Coren

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 11:13 PM

* posted on 8wayrun *

Okay... I'm going to give you guys a scenario, but first, lets try to agree on something: eSports leagues WILL have fighting games in them. This is an unavoidable fact. It's not something that we can control. Can we agree on this? Okay, we are greed.


Freud or Fraud?

Now, lets say we follow Tom Cannon's advice and reject all support from the eSports leagues. What happens? MLG runs the tournaments there way, with their rules, likely pissing a lot of people off. This leads two many different possible outcomes. The obvious one, being that eSports leagues say "fuck it" to fighting games, and everything returns back to how it is now.


He never said anything about rejecting eSports leagues, he wrote an article about where leagues have had rocky relation with the community in the past; in moving forward it's importent to look back, while we shouldn't harp on the past but we should keep the previous business precidents in mind on both sides of this debate before blindly moving forward. Also, way to throw Tom under the bus when he and EVO staff have done you personal favours such as letting the members of your forum signup on SRK and vote on the EVO 2010 Player's choice poll after it was closed to accounts made prior to the poll being openned (many of them already having SRK accounts leading to mass voter fraud). Glad to see you so community minded outside of Dustloop, truly you are a stalwart representative of interests.

However, there is another possibility which people are forgetting. Since the FGC is not working with eSports, we end up having EVO majors and MLG majors on the same weekend. People may not like the way MLG is run, but the prizes are bigger. Sooner or later top players have to make a choice and decide to go with MLG because of the bigger pots. EVO events get smaller and smaller, and the FGC's control of the situation diminishes because they aren't working with MLG to rectify any issues. We all lose.


This is a real issue for both sides and needs to be addressed through talks with TO's like ShinBlanka (if I mention it enough it'll happen) and The EVO staff. Renting a hotel ballroom or convention centre costs a lot of money and a TO generally has to just hope that they get within the margin they expected of venue fee returns to pay for it, so if turnouts on the biggest games like SF and Marvel get split you've got TO's a few grand in the hole (Tom Cannon himself has stated he has spent over 20 grand that he has yet to recoup on EVO costs, what a selfish guy!).

Now, lets say instead of we against Tom Cannon's advice and try to work with eSports instead. Now we at least have some connection with them, and we can offer our advice and try to fix the many issues they've had in the past (although, who knows if they will listen; but I've heard their recent Tekken events have been run ever well). We can help to try to fix issues, as well as make sure events don't compete with each other. Worst case? eSports leagues say "fuck it" and everything returns back to how it is now. Best case? We all win.


Worst case: In compromises with eSports leagues we move to either a capped backet, or invintational format, new players are officially fucked and foreign talent stops attending events because they are unable to fit into brackets / get invited.

Best Case: More money for the 1%

Now, Tocool asked in the 8wayrun chat room yesterday, "Why do we even need eSports? We've been fine for 15 years without them. Why do people suddenly think we'll die without them?" (paraphrased; yes, I do read the chat room, even if I don't always talk) This is an excellent question, which I don't feel has been properly answered yet in all the discussions in the FGC. Well to put it simply, its because of "escalation".


Truthfully we don't 'need' them, we're expanding exponentially on our own, they also don't need us, they're also growing exponentially. However we could potentially work out a mutually beneficial relationship and both blow up even bigger.

Fighting games are getting bigger, and people's times are limited. The number of fighting games coming out are increasing, and the amount of money being thrown around at major events is skyrocketing. We've been seeing a growing trend that players tend to flock to the bigger events and leave the less profitable games behind. A lot of players I know play Marvel and/or Street Fighter right now because thats where the players are, and thats where the money is... it doesn't matter whether they like the game or not.

Now, as stated before, eSports WILL have fighting games. The games featured in eSports leagues will naturally have the larger community because of the amount of money involved. We see this in the MOBA community. League of Legends, while having a huge advantage due to it being free to play from the start, has the majority of the community. And as other games come out, or go free to player; whether or not they are better is irrelevant unless they have some major promished cash in tournaments such as DOTA2.

So why do we suddenly need eSports, when we never needed it before? Because of limited time. If Soulcalibur V doesn't have any eSports leagues behind it (and I do consider EVO an eSports league, even though its "unique" in it's own right), we'll quickly be hearing the same things after the first 6 months: "I like SC5, but I see no reason to spend my limited time playing it, instead of practicing these other games which actually have huge tournaments". And sooner or later that common sentement becomes a downward spiral which turns into: "I like SC5, but no one else plays it, so why bother?".

In the past, a $200 payout tournament, and a $400 payout tournament for a lot of players wasn't enough to convince them to give up the game they preferred for the higher profit. But because of escalation, the margin of difference in payouts between the less popular games and the crowd-pleasers have become so large that they can't be ignored. Stick with a smaller game with a $500 payout, or switch to the less fun game, and try for that $5,000 payout.


And here's where you are oh so wrong, money can't buy love Jaxel.

Remember that EVO 2010 poll where you and your website were given an unfair advantage and still lost? Do you remember which game ended up winning the whole thing? Melty Blood: Actress Again a game that was put in by EVO staff because they thought there was no way in hell it would win, an import on game that could only be played on Japanese PS2s, a game that until recently the developers were completely unaware of the scope of the non-Japanese following. Why did we win? Because Melty has a closely knit community where we love our game so much that we campained 24/7 as hard as we could and rallied everyone who had ever fucking played the game to go and vote for it. We bet on our love of the game and our community and it payed off. We flew in Japanese top players, American top players, Mexican top players, all on our communal dime and we were the loudest goddamn event you have ever heard because every single entrant in melty got up at 6AM and lined up outside the ballroom doors so we could fill the first five rows of EVO seats when our game came up and we cheered so hard I couldn't speak for a week and my prof gave me an extra week to recover before I presented our project it was so bad. We have flown our players that speak Japanese to the japanese release of Melty Blood Current Code 1.07 at Hydra GP to speak with ECOLE representatives about our scene, they openned international twitter channels and started following american players and talk about the possibility of a north american / Korean / European official release.

We did all this through love and community effort, so don't fucking tell me that money triumphs over community always, if I wanted to make bank I'd be playing Yun and hating myself instead of Playing Cresent Moon Roa, the weakest character in the Playstation version of MBAA.

#60 hotbreakfest

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Posted 19 December 2011 - 11:52 PM

You can't be serious... We've already explained how the current esports model alienates the average tourney goer (such as myself AND many others), but I'll try to explain it again.

Why do you dislike the league format?

Many current formats are closed brackets, and even the ones with open brackets have a pretty strict player cap. We have open brackets with no player caps.

Why do you think it won't work?

It works GREAT (it's very successful, ain't it?), but not the way we want it to. It puts the top players on a pedastal, so they won't have to work as hard as everybody else to get to top 8 (seeding ftw :mellow:). This limits the chances of talented, unknown players to rise to the top (Coren gave good example using Gamerbee). Before he beat Justin Wong, Gamerbee was just an unknown average tourney goer (like the rest of us). It gets rid of that "put the quarter into the machine" equality that the FGC strives for. You can vs. any top player in a tourney, and all you need is the skill to get to him/her. Everybody has to do the same amount of work to get to the top.

What exactly differentiates the FGC from other games in eSports?

This question is phrased a little awkwardly, so I'll try my best to answer.
If we are talking ONLY about the games, then FGs are relatively similar to other competitive games regarding fundamentals. Controlling space, reading your opponents habits, baiting/punishment, execution, ect.
The second explanation is about "culture". Do you frequently see people putting up side-bets or doing money matches in starcraft/quake/ect? From my experience, most of the other games in "Western" esports tend to have a very reserved crowd, and the crowd is usually separated from the players.
How similar is this to this? The FGC is so much more casual and lighthearted in comparison.

Grow up.

And don't speak for 'most people'. Speak for yourself. Guarantee you know fuck all about 'most people'.

I tried hard to be civil, but your content with just insulting us. You beat me buddy, I'll leave. I guess the guys in the middle aren't good/important enough to be part of your "esport community".

This thread has become a joke anyway, so have fun worshiping your pro-gamers VIA streaming. Lol, e"sport" dickrider. :rolleyes:

Edited by hotbreakfest, 19 December 2011 - 11:58 PM.






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